Autonomous buses in Scotland

[johnofgwent]

Ok 

I suppose its inevitable given - jesus christ i just realised it was almost thirty fucking years ago - it was the mid 1990's when i was one of the guys working at westinghouse brake and signal in chippenham on the jubilee line extension and docklands light railway automated train operation and automatic train protection system.

The BIG difference is of course the risk assessment

As my mate on the Ajax Fighting Vehicle project says, 'it's ok we can kill up to six squaddies a year because our risk assessment provided to the government showed the batteries inside powering the electronics if the engine goes offline may 'violently disassemble' in certain circumstances.

Similarly, and i had a hand in writing it, so i bloody well know what it says, the ATP system begins its risk assessment by providing the reader with the cold equations (a lovely phrase that, THANK YOU Isaac Asimov i think it was who used it as a shirt story title) that an individual who accidentally or deliberately gets in the path of a train has zero survival chance and there is SOD ALL (no, those are not the actual words, but what was said meant that) chance of survival after impact and the kill zone extends TWO MILES in front of the train's current location.

The ATP system uses FOUR signals. green, double amber, amber and red. Red means there is an obstruction in the next section of signal controlled track. One of the ambers is next and now i don't remember if its single or double, but it means the next section is clear but the one after is not, the other amber means two clear sections and the green means three.

No train can run at full speed if a signal in front of it is not green. Speed limits automatically apply where the ambers control the next track section and that is the only way we could guarantee braking would stop the train from passing a red signal

Where am i going with this ?

In 1999 i was riding my Suzuki Bandit to Hook, near Basingstoke to the NTL Cabletel HQ. I had passed Junction 14 a while ago and was rolling up to junction 13 where the Newbury Services are. The motorway runs on a bridge over a minor road i think it is about 100 yards before the 300 yard countdown marker. Things may be different today as they realigned the A34 so north/south traffic avoid the J13 roundabout.

As i watched unbelieving, a forty tonne artic running at full thrust in the hard shoulder approached that bridge before the countdown markers, and slammed into the green car broken down in the hard shoulder. The cab went right over the car, well actually i don't know what really happened because there was a fireball and then a massive fireball the size of a cruise missile strike as the artic's tractor fuel tanks ruptured and the fire ignited the diesel

I am told the smoke, which billowed literally miles into the sky, was visible from half way to winchester and half way to oxford, and from hungerford to reading

The fireball was really fucking impressive

When the police got there i and about three hundred others were stopped in the queue. I'd ridden my bike over the crash barrier (armco i think they call it) and was up the bank some way back. The copper's first question to me was what the F@@@ i was doing up there.

I replied 'theres a green ford fiesta UNDER that cab and if you think I'm leaving my bike on the hard shoulder after what i saw you can F@@@ right off'

Half an hour later a copper and a fireman came to talk to me. They asked where i was when i saw the crash happen because there was no sign of another vehicle. When i mentioned the bridge they ran off and sent men to search the road under the motorway thinking the impact threw the car up and over, i admit i did mention to them my 1977 accident where a 32 tonne artic hit my mini at 40 threw the car eight feet into the air and 300 feet across the road and as soon as i did the firemans face drained of all colour and he swore a lot.

I was trapped with well over a thousand drivers behind this carnage for hours.

The copper came back and said to my face 'son, i know you think you saw another car get hit, but there's no sign of one, i think you mistook a car for being in the way, don't feel bad about it, it happens that witnesses see things .....'

A week later i got a phone call from the same copper asking me to go to the local plod shop to give a statement. And he said i owe you an apology. When the crane lifted the cab wreckage we found more metal under it. 

I had Dad ring Bernard. They had no idea who was in the car, there was nothing but soot and sulphur and phosphorous and calcium oxide powder in the stuff they scraped off the road.  I went to give my statement and explained who my family connections to the Forensic Science unit were.

They still had not worked out who the victims were, or even how many. Writing this now i wonder if they ever did.

So

If one of these fully automated buses running on the motorway hard shoulder does the same as that incapacitated / snoring lorry driver did (a couple of motorists who passed the lorry before the crash said they saw the driver slumped at the wheel) and kills a family broken down on the hard shoulder, will they hang the directors of the company that builds it for murder for financial gain ?

Because they should.

[Unlucky4Sum]

Means absolutely nothing.
Every car in the U.K. is equipped with a radio, seats and wing mirrors, are they to blame for the thousands of deaths on the U.K. roads? Your own link states that the crash in China was the drivers fault.

"In their own investigation of the events that led up to the crash, Tesla reported findings that it was in fact the accelerator that was excessively engaged throughout instead."

The driver though he was pressing the break.
I've done over a million miles in a vehicle controlled by autopilot, not one crash.

Well as the phrase goes:  Tesla 'would say that wouldn't they' 

The safety case put forward by all these auto driving developers is always that the driver is always responsible and should be paying attention at all times.  Well human nature isn't always like that, far from it.  

And not one crash in a million miles isn't actually a good figure.  With an average of 7,400 miles per car per year (higher for vans and trucks) even if everyone was as diligent as you then you're still one accident away from an accident a year for every 140 cars. 

These auto driving designs are trying to solve and validate a truly humungous problem made worse by its real time demands.  That they justify it on the 'well we've tested it for all the things we could think of' plan is not fit for the purpose of fully automated vehicles.

[HDQQ]

I have an image of Pappy walking in front of a horse and cart with a red flag and leading it through the lanes and pot holes of Cornwall and saying how offended he is and that it is all the fault of the Tories

The requirement for a man carrying a red flag to walk in front of motor cars in UK was repealed in 1896. But did the change in the law specifically prohibit someone from walking in front of a car carrying a red flag? I mean, if I wanted to drive along a main road in a [borrowed] Suburu Impreza, at 4 mph behind a man carrying a red flag, would I have a legal defence?  I wouldn't be causing an obstruction because I'd be going slowly because there's a man walking in front of me and there's no legal requirement to overtake any item of traffic.  The man with the red flag could claim that there's never been a law passed prohibiting such an activity and, indeed, it was compulsory up until 1896. 

[papasmurf]

And it's obvious to all that you can't distinguish between caused by and involving.

Having studied engineering/disasters failures at degree level I can assure you that I do.

[Nick]

Nick it was obvious to all except you that accidents/death caused by autonomous vehicles is a health and safety issue.

And it's obvious to all that you can't distinguish between caused by and involving.

[papasmurf]

You didn't mention anything about health and safety, as usual you are slippery like and eel.

Nick it was obvious to all except you that accidents/death caused by autonomous vehicles is a health and safety issue. 

[Nick]

I am VERY suspicious of any organisation that marks it's own homework when it come to health and safety issues. I always apply the principles of systematic scepticism to such matters.

You didn't mention anything about health and safety, as usual you are slippery like and eel. 

[papasmurf]

But you believe every word from the ONS, IMF and BoE about Brexit. Cherry picking which corporations you choose to believe.

Those are NOT health and safety related. The crashes and deaths cause by autonomous  vehicles are. As are asbestos, smoking, pesticides, herbicides, cladding on high rise buildings, and other similar issues. 

[Nick]

Borchester as per usual you make wrong assumptions about me. I am VERY suspicious of any organisation that marks it's own homework when it come to health and safety issues. I always apply the principles of systematic scepticism to such matters.

But you believe every word from the ONS, IMF and BoE about Brexit. Cherry picking which corporations you choose to believe. 

[papasmurf]

I have an image of Pappy walking in front of a horse and cart with a red flag and leading it through the lanes and pot holes of Cornwall and saying how offended he is and that it is all the fault of the Tories

Borchester as per usual you make wrong assumptions about me. I am VERY suspicious of any organisation that marks it's own homework when it come to health and safety issues. I always apply the principles of systematic scepticism to such matters.

[Borchester]

I have an image of Pappy walking in front of a horse and cart with a red flag and leading it through the lanes and pot holes of Cornwall and saying how offended he is and that it is all the fault of the Tories

[papasmurf]

Based on absolutely no information about the investigation.

Based on it is NOT an independent investigation. 

[Nick]

I don't trust their investigation.

Based on absolutely no information about the investigation. 

[papasmurf]

Their investigation involved downloading the data from the car where it showed the accelerator had been pushed and not the brake. If you can't understand the concept it's not my fault.

I don't trust their investigation.

[Nick]

Their own investigation inspires me with no confidence at all.

Their investigation involved downloading the data from the car where it showed the accelerator had been pushed and not the brake. If you can't understand the concept it's not my fault.