Irish election

[T00ts]

Just out of interest I asked Google how many countries have shown signs of political unrest recently. This came up. I can't vouch for the site I know nothing about them but it seemed an interesting analysis. It seems that there is indeed a general dissatisfaction with all sorts of government. Perhaps it is true that the politicians are out of touch with the people all over the world and should be expecting the unexpected nearly everywhere.



https://www.maplecroft.com/insights/analysis/47-countries-witness-surge-in-civil-unrest/">//https://www.maplecroft.com/insights/analysis/47-countries-witness-surge-in-civil-unrest/



https://www.maplecroft.com/siteassets/images/insight-images/analysis/2020/pro-2020/civil-unrest/figure-1-the-Civil-Unrest-Index-reveals-widespread-increases-in-risk-during-2019-jpg">

[cromwell]

In fairness, even Sinn Féin didn't predict their own success.  They only fielded 42 candidates so clearly never expected or aimed to win a majority or to at least be the largest party in the Dáil by a big distance.  Their manifesto was highly ambitious and One could justifiably even suspect that it was designed in the knowledge that they would never have to actually deliver it on their own.  If they don't deliver, they will blame their coalition partner.  After all, if they were confident in the manifesto, and their ability to deliver it, then why didn't they field enough candidates to be the largest party or even win an outright majority ?



Yes, there is a worldwide questioning of the status quo.  But many of the arguments against the status quo are hyperbolic, theatrical and unduly extremifying — and therefore people swing to parties who have big promises.  What we haven't seen yet is whether those who promise to change the status quo (in a way which works to be better in the long term) will actually manage to deliver the improvement.



Also....I'm not sure where I've altered my stance ?

Of course you're not sure where you've altered your own stance,none of us like to admit we are as human as the next man or woman do we?



Anyway the point I was trying to make is that Trump or Brexit are not one off phenomenons as is the Irish election result,people are tired of being told how fortunate they are when clearly they are not and being lectured,patronised and taken for granted by politicians.



As I said such changes are not without dangers but who is to blame for that? certainly not ordinary people.

[Conchúr]

Unformed eh! Or do you mean uninformed or am I uninformed? :-P

In any event perhaps they feel the same about some of the interventions by our Irish brethren with the old "Oh it's the brexiteers again who shift position to suit their stance on the day"

Funny how none of you predicted Sinn Feins success,it's the same as is happening across the democratic world people voicing dissatisfaction with the status quo (though not that it doesn't have its dangers),still it's great to see you explain it all away by altering your stance to suit?

In fairness, even Sinn Féin didn't predict their own success.  They only fielded 42 candidates so clearly never expected or aimed to win a majority or to at least be the largest party in the Dáil by a big distance.  Their manifesto was highly ambitious and One could justifiably even suspect that it was designed in the knowledge that they would never have to actually deliver it on their own.  If they don't deliver, they will blame their coalition partner.  After all, if they were confident in the manifesto, and their ability to deliver it, then why didn't they field enough candidates to be the largest party or even win an outright majority ?



Yes, there is a worldwide questioning of the status quo.  But many of the arguments against the status quo are hyperbolic, theatrical and unduly extremifying — and therefore people swing to parties who have big promises.  What we haven't seen yet is whether those who promise to change the status quo (in a way which works to be better in the long term) will actually manage to deliver the improvement.



Also....I'm not sure where I've altered my stance ?

[cromwell]

I've been commenting on the Irish election elsewhere, and my last couple of posts I've been talking about Irish politics with Thomas.  



Having read through the thread, I don't see much to respond to in fairness  — it's the usual old "make everything the fault of the big bad EU" stuff and unformed opinions about Ireland to which I've become all too accustomed on this site.  



The truth is that surveys show that healthcare and housing were far and away the main issues of the election — neither of which have anything really to do with the EU.  Immigration featured as a key issue for something like 1% of voters, with Brexit hovering around the same figure.  https://www.rte.ie/news/election-2020/2020/0209/1114111-election-exit-poll/">https://www.rte.ie/news/election-2020/2 ... exit-poll/">https://www.rte.ie/news/election-2020/2020/0209/1114111-election-exit-poll/



Parties that campaigned on Eurosceptic or anti-immigration tickets achieved negligible support.  



Sinn Féin are an Irish Nationalist party.  This is different from the general political spectrum understanding of 'nationalism' as Irish Nationalism simply means supporting the unification of Ireland.  It can consist of many different blends of the political spectrum, from communists who believe in a united Irish socialist Republic, to liberal progressives, to pragmatic centrists, to socially conservative Catholics, and all the way to far right nut jobs  who believe in a united Ireland made up of 'pure' white Irish people.  There are Eurosceptic Irish Nationalists, and there are Irish Nationalists who support continued EU membership.  The one common denominator to all this is the desire for reunification — hence they are all Irish Nationalists but not necessarily anywhere close to eachother on the political spectrum or in their views towards the EU.



The swing in support to Sinn Féin can most likely be ascribed to the fact that Ireland has been centrist for a long, long time and Sinn Féin represent a viable option on the left. Now I don't particularly think Sinn Féin are 'pure' leftists — they are a party that wants unification and to me they would gladly move to the centre or centre-right if that's what got them into a position to push for unification.  But I imagine this election has cemented their position as 'The Left' of Irish politics.



All this election represents is the apparent transition of Ireland towards a political spectrum more in line with politics elsewhere in Europe — a left right spectrum.  Fine Gael and Fíanna Fáil are largely similar parties who emerged from the Irish Civil War and are both pretty centrist.

Unformed eh! Or do you mean uninformed or am I uninformed? :-P

In any event perhaps they feel the same about some of the interventions by our Irish brethren with the old "Oh it's the brexiteers again who shift position to suit their stance on the day"

Funny how none of you predicted Sinn Feins success,it's the same as is happening across the democratic world people voicing dissatisfaction with the status quo (though not that it doesn't have its dangers),still it's great to see you explain it all away by altering your stance to suit?

[Conchúr]

What is it with the EU that drives its member states toward Nationalism ?



 Strange that our Irish friends that are so keen to comment on UK politics are thus far silent on their own .

I've been commenting on the Irish election elsewhere, and my last couple of posts I've been talking about Irish politics with Thomas.  



Having read through the thread, I don't see much to respond to in fairness  — it's the usual old "make everything the fault of the big bad EU" stuff and unformed opinions about Ireland to which I've become all too accustomed on this site.  



The truth is that surveys show that healthcare and housing were far and away the main issues of the election — neither of which have anything really to do with the EU.  Immigration featured as a key issue for something like 1% of voters, with Brexit hovering around the same figure.  https://www.rte.ie/news/election-2020/2020/0209/1114111-election-exit-poll/">https://www.rte.ie/news/election-2020/2 ... exit-poll/">https://www.rte.ie/news/election-2020/2020/0209/1114111-election-exit-poll/



Parties that campaigned on Eurosceptic or anti-immigration tickets achieved negligible support.  



Sinn Féin are an Irish Nationalist party.  This is different from the general political spectrum understanding of 'nationalism' as Irish Nationalism simply means supporting the unification of Ireland.  It can consist of many different blends of the political spectrum, from communists who believe in a united Irish socialist Republic, to liberal progressives, to pragmatic centrists, to socially conservative Catholics, and all the way to far right nut jobs  who believe in a united Ireland made up of 'pure' white Irish people.  There are Eurosceptic Irish Nationalists, and there are Irish Nationalists who support continued EU membership.  The one common denominator to all this is the desire for reunification — hence they are all Irish Nationalists but not necessarily anywhere close to eachother on the political spectrum or in their views towards the EU.



The swing in support to Sinn Féin can most likely be ascribed to the fact that Ireland has been centrist for a long, long time and Sinn Féin represent a viable option on the left. Now I don't particularly think Sinn Féin are 'pure' leftists — they are a party that wants unification and to me they would gladly move to the centre or centre-right if that's what got them into a position to push for unification.  But I imagine this election has cemented their position as 'The Left' of Irish politics.



All this election represents is the apparent transition of Ireland towards a political spectrum more in line with politics elsewhere in Europe — a left right spectrum.  Fine Gael and Fíanna Fáil are largely similar parties who emerged from the Irish Civil War and are both pretty centrist.

[cromwell]

What is it with the EU that drives its member states toward Nationalism ?



 Strange that our Irish friends that are so keen to comment on UK politics are thus far silent on their own .

Yes it is and the results of those elections do mirror unhappiness with the status quo elsewhere.

[Streetwalker]

Can Sinn Féin form a government? BBC news item:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-51468778">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-51468778

 No , they don't have the numbers to form a government . More likely a coalition between the other two with a few independents making up the weight

[cromwell]

No, it's your inability to grasp that you aren't the only person who holds sincere beliefs that's the problem. Reducing other people to pantomime villains because they hold a different opinion to you is sh*t debating Tbh.



Now, isn't this thread about the Irish elections?

Mod Notice

Yes it is so can we return to that? Anyone wanting to discuss the Titanic,Tories are ......,who wants to be a millionaire can do so in the off topic thread where other posts have gone  

Thanks

[DeppityDawg]

It is their callous ill informed opinion that is the problem. I have schadenfreude when one of them finds out the hard way hostile environment created by the Tories bites them personally.

No, it's your inability to grasp that you aren't the only person who holds sincere beliefs that's the problem. Reducing other people to pantomime villains because they hold a different opinion to you is shit debating Tbh.



Now, isn't this thread about the Irish elections?

[papasmurf]

Can Sinn Féin form a government? BBC news item:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-51468778">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-51468778

[Streetwalker]

He doesn't have any friends. Can he ask the audience?

I guess so , we await the asking but in the meantime if papa would rather have a 50/50 the options are  1. I was referring to Gerry and Conner not posting on this thread   or   2  Universal credit .



 :fcplm:

[Barry]

What is it with the EU that drives its member states toward Nationalism ?



 Strange that our Irish friends that are so keen to comment on UK politics are thus far silent on their own .

Quite, it is hard to see how so many people voted for them, when we are told that Ireland have 91% support for the EU.

[Borchester]

Whats that's got to do with the price of fish

I believe that Pappy thinks that he has just seen Conor and Gerry on Cornish TV.

[papasmurf]

Rarely do I agree with Postman Pat, but I think that the unification of the island of Ireland is more a question of when not if. Indeed I would not be surprised if N.I. left the UK ahead of Scotland; there are a lot less obstacles!

I agree with your comments.

[Major Sinic]

Rarely do I agree with Postman Pat, but I think that the unification of the island of Ireland is more a question of when not if. Indeed I would not be surprised if N.I. left the UK ahead of Scotland; there are a lot less obstacles!



My own view is that the £10.8 billion shipped to N.I. every year from Westminster is a drain we can do without, especially when compared with the mere £8.6 billion subsidy to the EU... While I would not suggest that they be 'forced' out of the UK, even if such a thing were possible I in common, I suspect with most English, would welcome their departure, preferably with goodwill on both sides.