What just happened ?

[Sheepy]

Well that's all I was saying the Irish can't hate us forever and us the IRA ,of course people will but it's counter productive and gets nobody anywhere.

I take no notice of them,it was obvious the way they were heading.

[Conchúr]

You could argue it was the fault of Dermot MacMurrough who brought the Welsh/Norman mercenaries Robert FitzStephen and Richard De Clare to Ireland to recover his throne as King of Leinster.

Well, you could argue that of course,  but it would be a pretty narrow and tenuous argument. I don't think MacMurrough's invitation could be viewed as an open invitation to subjugate Ireland for almost the rest of the millennium.



But, regardless, it doesn't really matter now whose fault any of it was.  What matters is how the legacy of these things is dealt with in the present day.  Whether one likes it or not, or whether one wishes the matter would simply go away, Northern Ireland as an entity is a legacy of Anglo-Irish history. Part of the problem with Brexit is that this legacy was one most British people didn't, and probably still don't, really care about.  But as I've said on multiple occasions to those who try to toss the matter of Northern Ireland aside with the old 'nobody cares anyway' — not caring about something does not make it disappear.

[Groo]

Maybe I misunderstood your post, but you appeared to be suggesting that any wrongs done by the UK or England in the past are irrelevant to the current situation, and that anyone who, for example, wanted Ireland to become united again because it was already united before being invaded and then split up by England, should move on and forget about it because it's all in the past.



I was therefore trying to point out that if the reverse was true and we had been invaded, I was wondering whether you would take the same view i.e. we've been invaded so we just have to suck it up and not resist or anything.



In a way you are actually right, in the ideal world, but it's not going to work in the real world as people tend to get pretty pissed about these type of things.

Ireland like the rest of UK has a history of invasion, including Vikings and Normans.



Ireland was like Wales, divided up into smaller kingdoms, making it easier to defeat due to in fighting.

[Groo]

Because you need to have legal certainties to protect rights. I am Irish, I have always been Irish, and my British citizenship is nothing but the result of a historical quirk whereby a lazy and disastrous decision was made to draw a border on our island and cut Irishman off from Irishman. Let us imagine, had the Germans managed to occupy and settle German communities on English soil in the aftermath of WW2, that they had drawn a border across the southern six counties of England to retain them as German territory and declaring that any English person caught on the wrong side of that border was German — not English, not British — but German.  Would you like to be stripped of your nationality ? Would you like to be told that you are not British ?  Would you like the fact that you were now economically, politically and socially ostracised from your own countrymen down the road?

You could argue it was the fault of Dermot MacMurrough who brought the Welsh/Norman mercenaries Robert FitzStephen and Richard De Clare to Ireland to recover his throne as King of Leinster.

[cromwell]

Maybe I misunderstood your post, but you appeared to be suggesting that any wrongs done by the UK or England in the past are irrelevant to the current situation, and that anyone who, for example, wanted Ireland to become united again because it was already united before being invaded and then split up by England, should move on and forget about it because it's all in the past.



I was therefore trying to point out that if the reverse was true and we had been invaded, I was wondering whether you would take the same view i.e. we've been invaded so we just have to suck it up and not resist or anything.



In a way you are actually right, in the ideal world, but it's not going to work in the real world as people tend to get pretty pissed about these type of things.

Well that's all I was saying the Irish can't hate us forever and us the IRA ,of course people will but it's counter productive and gets nobody anywhere.

[Javert]

Why are you talking about,what has your imaginary Russian invasion got to do with our past and Ireland,should we stick it to the Italians for the Roman invasion.



When do you give up hating or being a victim,in yours and looking at your reply and Gerrys hundreds of years.

Maybe I misunderstood your post, but you appeared to be suggesting that any wrongs done by the UK or England in the past are irrelevant to the current situation, and that anyone who, for example, wanted Ireland to become united again because it was already united before being invaded and then split up by England, should move on and forget about it because it's all in the past.



I was therefore trying to point out that if the reverse was true and we had been invaded, I was wondering whether you would take the same view i.e. we've been invaded so we just have to suck it up and not resist or anything.



In a way you are actually right, in the ideal world, but it's not going to work in the real world as people tend to get pretty pissed about these type of things.

[cromwell]

So if Russia successfully invaded and annexed the UK today, we should simply say let's live for the here and now?



If not, what is the correct period during which we can resist before giving up?



Other than the holocaust itselF there is not much difference between the way England treated Ireland over the years and how Germany treated France.  In fact if anything it was worse.

Why are you talking about,what has your imaginary Russian invasion got to do with our past and Ireland,should we stick it to the Italians for the Roman invasion.



When do you give up hating or being a victim,in yours and looking at your reply and Gerrys hundreds of years.

[Javert]

Great analogy there Gerry,the English like Hitler and the Nazis.



Some retorts to this stuff aren't on but do you wonder why when this crops up though it doesn't excuse it,why we can't live for the here and now?

So if Russia successfully invaded and annexed the UK today, we should simply say let's live for the here and now?



If not, what is the correct period during which we can resist before giving up?



Other than the holocaust itselF there is not much difference between the way England treated Ireland over the years and how Germany treated France.  In fact if anything it was worse.

[cromwell]

John your confused. The perpetrators were the english invaders. I'll put in a context you might understand. Hitler invades france, france gets hitler out. Does that help you understand.

Great analogy there Gerry,the English like Hitler and the Nazis.



Some retorts to this stuff aren't on but do you wonder why when this crops up though it doesn't excuse it,why we can't live for the here and now?

[GerryT]

You could always move south to join your beloved descendants of the perpetrators of the Irish free state ....

John your confused. The perpetrators were the english invaders. I'll put in a context you might understand. Hitler invades france, france gets hitler out. Does that help you understand.

[Conchúr]

You could always move south to join your beloved descendants of the perpetrators of the Irish free state ....

Well, I actually do live down south now.  As for the "perpetrators" of the Irish Free State — I hold nothing but the highest regard for the men and women who fell in combat, faced the hangman and firing squad, and languished in squalid cells in the name of liberating my people.

[cromwell]

No. I'm saying what I am saying. which is that yet again I see the British Parliament bending over backwards to take it up the from people who have a proven track record of resorting to violence if they do not get their way in matters of politics.



It seems to me is those who like the solution the men of violence are offering or demanding who need to defend their liking of it

MOD Notice

Can we watch the language and other posters too the anti Irish stuff

[johnofgwent]

Because you need to have legal certainties to protect rights. I am Irish, I have always been Irish, and my British citizenship is nothing but the result of a historical quirk whereby a lazy and disastrous decision was made to draw a border on our island and cut Irishman off from Irishman. Let us imagine, had the Germans managed to occupy and settle German communities on English soil in the aftermath of WW2, that they had drawn a border across the southern six counties of England to retain them as German territory and declaring that any English person caught on the wrong side of that border was German — not English, not British — but German.  Would you like to be stripped of your nationality ? Would you like to be told that you are not British ?  Would you like the fact that you were now economically, politically and socially ostracised from your own countrymen down the road?



The Good Friday Agreement gave people like me our right to be Irish again. My Irish nationality and citizenship is legally recognised, I can freely interact across the island without much political, social or economic impediment and I can enjoy the rights of an Irish citizen.  Such rights cannot be taken for granted.  Indeed, there is a case going through the courts at the moment where the Home Office is attempting to ride roughshod over the nationality and citizenship rights of an Irish woman from Derry, Emma de Souza.  I'm actually delivering a seminar on it later today for some university students. This case proves the ongoing importance of the GFA and making sure that the British government continues to be held account on its solemn obligations.  Could we live in peace without the GFA? Of course we could. But it won't be until the political system demonstrates that it can be trusted to respect the spirit of the GFA's principles without a legal framework being necessary.

You could always move south to join your beloved descendants of the perpetrators of the Irish free state ....

[T00ts]

Something must be in the air. I just heard BJ telling Corbyn to 'man up' and agree a GE.

[Javert]

Yes it is.



You are a victim. You may be a quarter Irish victim or a 50% Martian victim, but the moment you decide to run to teacher or the board admin because you have been offended or even think about doing so, you are a victim. And when you do that the world will organise a group hug and say, oh, poor little Javert, he is a victim. And at the same time it will think think what a snivelling git, when will the sad b*st*rd grow a pair?



It may not be right and it may not be fair, but that is the way the game is, has  and always will be played.



So do yourself a favour. Stand up straight, put your shoulders back and act the man

The only problem with your post is that when you say "the world" you mean you and the people like you.  Certainly not everybody in the world.