Free Will

[Nalaar]

If I'm undecided that's free will, isn't it?

I don't think so, if I had said something that you found utterly convincing then you wouldn't be undecided, but as I haven't, you aren't.



All you're doing is reading my posts, and then discovering if you find what I'm typing to be convincing or not. You have no choice over whether or not you find something convincing.

[Barry]

Are there any particular aspects of Free Will that lead you to believe you have it?

Yes, I think that I have the free will to remain undecided. Which was actually my whole point of posting. It was a bit of irony and a bit of truth.

If I'm undecided that's free will, isn't it?

[Nalaar]

I'm really enjoying this thread, but can't decide whether I have free will, or not. So keep going.

 :hattip

Are there any particular aspects of Free Will that lead you to believe you have it?

[T00ts]

But for various reasons, all variations on problems and downright evil in the attitude and behaviour of various of the Christian God's believers on this earth, I came to the view he could not possibly exist while allowing such clearly sinful evil within his own institutions set up to adulate him and thus either he is a fake, or I needs must piss on him and the rankings of his cultists, for to wake from the dead and find the afterlife promised to them awaits me too would be hell indeed.

It is not that God is fake but a Church which allows sin.

[Nalaar]

And what part of " My curiosity in this regard is sated" did you not understand. I don't actually care.

Righto.

[Barry]

I'm really enjoying this thread, but can't decide whether I have free will, or not. So keep going.

 :hattip

[johnofgwent]

And do you have control at a molecular level, or are you a witness to the processes?

And what part of " My curiosity in this regard is sated" did you not understand. I don't actually care.



Most people at some point experience the childlike euphoria that can come only from observing something whilst inwardly the only words that form are akin to "wow, that's cool". There are some poor sods who never reach this point. I mourn for what they might have been.



Most of those who pass that first gate, at some point later in their lives experience the same, or maybe a different , phenomenon to the same degree of euphoria and find the "wow, that's cool" response of the childlike mind is replaced, or if they are really lucky, not replaced, but instead augmented by the inquiring mind's supplementary question "i wonder how that happens"



But some years later, the most blessed and enlightened of minds pass into a third state.



Here the childlike response is received with a warmth of nostalgia, the inquiry from their mis-spent youth is reflected upon with a mix of delight and sadness, delight at those things done, sadness at those lost or undone, or stupidly not pursued, and finally overtaken by an overwhelming and all encompassing decision akin to "it's a nice idea, but let someone else worry about it, mine's a pint"



My findings from my inquiring phase, and my thoughts on them, sit in print on a shelf in the British Library along with the findings and thoughts of millions of others. Along with anyone else who has ever penned anything that meant anything of note to anyone at sometime, my immortality is guaranteed, at least to the point where the lights go out and nobody is left to care.  



It is more than I could have hoped for, and i am content with that.



I'm sorry of this is not the answer you hoped for. But mine is a pint, and preferably one brewed with a chocolate malt, for I confess I find paler ales not to my liking.

[Nalaar]

I have through my education come to an understanding of how things work at the molecular level. My curiosity in this regard is sated.

And do you have control at a molecular level, or are you a witness to the processes?

[johnofgwent]

Ah well, yes, sickness and death.



Ok some here will have heard this already but before I try to address that maybe I should lay at least some of my ideology on table. I was brought up in a broadly Christian household. It would be fair to say my father was far more agnostic than believer, but on my mothers side my grandmother was in more ways than one a child if the Welsh Methodist revival at the start of the 20th century.



I was at one point a believer and a lay preacher.



But for various reasons, all variations on problems and downright evil in the attitude and behaviour of various of the Christian God's believers on this earth, I came to the view he could not possibly exist while allowing such clearly sinful evil within his own institutions set up to adulate him and thus either he is a fake, or I needs must piss on him and the rankings of his cultists, for to wake from the dead and find the afterlife promised to them awaits me too would be hell indeed.



I have through my education come to an understanding of how things work at the molecular level. My curiosity in this regard is sated.



I have had my full measure of sickness and death put upon me. Been there briefly myself and my last waking thought was at least I will never have to.put up with that bitch at the CAA in London again. And then my wife and daughter resuscitated me. Buggers.



Knowing as i do the molecular level at which this occurs, i see the struggle for life and constance of life in the next generation as the eternal handing out of a V sign to the god called entropy and his sister called chaos, a struggle that has gone on for millennia.



And speaking as one who has personally gone and kicked death or Poseidon in the nadgers not once but thrice, and descended into a cold wet hades once more in addition, in order to wrest from their skeletal dead hand the near lifeless body (here Toots and Barry would add 'and soul's but I am not so sure) if one I judge they are trying to steal for themselves before the time *i* judge is fitting, and succeeded on all four counts, I think I know where I stand on free will and the desire to see life cheat death if only for the time the bio system it uses to enable such postponement of the inevitable can manage it.



I reject the philosophy that all is pointless because we have no power to resist the inevitable.



Beyond that, as i have tried to explain, i cant seecwhat elsebi can say

[Nalaar]

At the risk of being accused of sending this conversation down yet another side alley...



How old are you and have you got any kids.

29.

I have no children.

why would you want to bring another generation into existence to suffer this imprisonment and slavery ...

Firstly our wants are impressed upon us, not chosen.



But even if it wasn't consider your statement in any other terms, for example - do you think sickness and death is a bad thing? If yes then why would you want to bring another generation into existence to suffer sickness and death? It just doesn't really work as an argument because it excludes *everything else*.

[johnofgwent]

I'll just outline the very basics and then can address the questions that come from that.



We do not have Free Will. Two parts.



The first basic premise is this - You are not in control of your thoughts. You only become aware of what you are thinking after it has occurred to you.



I think most people find this the easier aspect to agree with.



Secondly - Every thought/reaction etc you have is purely a matter of biochemistry in your brain which you have no control over (some people also believe in spirits/souls etc, which again we have no control over). You are not able to elaborate why you believe in the ideas you believe in, and if something convinces you to change your mind, you had no say in that either.



I find this aspect allot more wordy to explain and allot less intuitive, but when you view everything through the lens of biochemistry it is self evident.

At the risk of being accused of sending this conversation down yet another side alley...



How old are you and have you got any kids.



I dont know if you are putting forward the case you have done through this thread purely as a thought experiment or as a presentation of your personal viewpoint.



If the latter and this is your personal philosophy, that all is pointless and you have no say in your mindless reactions to the whim of random chance or some seriously insane deity, why would you want to bring another generation into existence to suffer this imprisonment and slavery ...

[DeppityDawg]

Just let's clarify. I can be a very girly girl when the occasion demands. I like gentlemen to open doors for me, stand when I enter a room and treat me like a lady and I have a shoes fetish if I'm really honest. Having established that I am not the kind of girl who won't get mucky when required, who always assumes that she is not capable and won't give everything a go. Blame my Dad who raised me to be independent. Just saying!  :X:

Are there any women without a shoe fetish? Wor lass has cost 000s over the years in shoes. Some, she's only worn once ffs. I suppose you could say she's a "girly girl" too, and she loves her heels. On the other hand, she will get stuck in when the situation demands. But the truth is, at risk of playing into the hands of Lotsov, she is very traditional girl at heart and likes to be the lady. That said, I dare anyone to tell her she doesn't have her own free will  ::

[T00ts]

I know several women like that. (They wear "rigger" type boots all of the time. One of them wore rigger boots and a traditional wedding dress at her wedding.

Just let's clarify. I can be a very girly girl when the occasion demands. I like gentlemen to open doors for me, stand when I enter a room and treat me like a lady and I have a shoes fetish if I'm really honest. Having established that I am not the kind of girl who won't get mucky when required, who always assumes that she is not capable and won't give everything a go. Blame my Dad who raised me to be independent. Just saying!  :X:

[papasmurf]

 rigger boots and a Tutu and concretes her drive.

I know several women like that. (They wear "rigger" type boots all of the time. One of them wore rigger boots and a traditional wedding dress at her wedding.

[T00ts]

Proof that free will exists? Ok, there is a poster on here who maintains because Toots is a "wimmin", she is a delicate little flower who requires protection. Toots on the other hand, exercises her "free will", and goes out in rigger boots and a Tutu and concretes her drive. What more proof do you need that freewill exist ffs  ::

Almost true!   :dncg:  :dncg:  :dncg: