Free Will

[T00ts]

What do you know without information?

I have always had a sense of who I am. I don't think that has been dependent on any received knowledge. I know that there is a core of me which is untouchable and I am pretty sure we all have that insight if we admit to it. Again I believe your only consideration is the physical scientifically provable evidence but I feel we are each capable of far deeper processes as yet unknown by science. I call it my Spiritual being which is far superior.

[johnofgwent]

Thoughts arise do to biochemical reactions, over which we have no control, all we do is witness the results of these reactions.

Yet to pick up where I left off some time ago, we *do* have conscious control over those processes, or more specifically, we can learn to acquire them.



To put it bluntly, I can, by nothing more than focussing my own mind, exert a direct, physical, measurable change on blood pressure, blood flow, brainwave activity and level of stress. I can shut my oxygen demand down or ramp it up , and i can modify my heart rate simply by thinking about it. I can also do the same to breathing levels, although it has been some years since i was fool enough to do that, because having done it to survive an otherwise lethal situation i found myself in, it was literally DAYS before my autonomic system reliably took back control - i kept having what was basically sleep apnoea in the middle of the day, for days. A small price to pay for staying alive instead of dying at 20 metres down, but not pelasant all the same



I fear your persistent approach that we are nothing more than machines subjected to vagaries of utterly random chance belittles the control system we actually are. You would have us regard ourselves as even less autonomous than the robots that are today a pale imitation and mockery of a man



The classic philosophical argument has it that an omniscient omipotent god denies the puppets he controls the lives of any choice in their life. But I think you go even further than that. I never understood what you were getting at when you started this thread, and I still dont.

[Nalaar]

I would not deny your science but I find it restricting and it doesn't explain how we can 'know' things without prior information.

What do you know without information?

[T00ts]

Thoughts arise do to biochemical reactions, over which we have no control, all we do is witness the results of these reactions.

That's what I thought you would say. The trouble for me in that is the lack of acknowledgement of the Spiritual, you talk as if we are simply Temporal. So as a strong believer I have real trouble in the limitations your theory imposes. I would not deny your science but I find it restricting and it doesn't explain how we can 'know' things without prior information. I respect your position of course so I just feel that there is no centre ground. Everything under God is Spiritual so Temporal biochemical reactions although designed by God are not the full story for me. I understand if that seems a bit off the wall to you but my beliefs and study of the Gospel are greater than I and I fear greater than the science currently understood.

[Nalaar]

So where are you saying that will comes from?

Thoughts arise do to biochemical reactions, over which we have no control, all we do is witness the results of these reactions.

[T00ts]

Learn from what? People, Books, internet...you are not in control of which (if any) of those are available to you, and indeed the ones that are available may be heavy bias which you have nothing to compare to, again, all out of your control.







You are not in control of your own inspiration, you may be inspired, you may not, you can not chose to become inspired.







This has both of the problems pointed out above - you do not chose how curious you are about something, you just are aware of being curios or not, and even if you are curious, the tools you have to explore that curiosity are bound by circumstances beyond your control.

So where are you saying that will comes from?

[Nalaar]

Are you ignoring the will to learn?

Learn from what? People, Books, internet...you are not in control of which (if any) of those are available to you, and indeed the ones that are available may be heavy bias which you have nothing to compare to, again, all out of your control.

Are you ignoring inspiration?

You are not in control of your own inspiration, you may be inspired, you may not, you can not chose to become inspired.

Are you ignoring natural curiosity?

This has both of the problems pointed out above - you do not chose how curious you are about something, you just are aware of being curios or not, and even if you are curious, the tools you have to explore that curiosity are bound by circumstances beyond your control.

[T00ts]

Someone is not in control of the knowledge they have access to.



Be it because of their place or time of their birth, the society they were born into, any number of cognitive complications that limit their compensation abilities etc.



None of these are chosen attributes, but they all have a vast impact on access to knowledge.

Are you ignoring the will to learn? Are you ignoring inspiration? Are you ignoring natural curiosity? I just wonder if you are limiting human potential to purely external forces.

[Nalaar]

In what way?

Someone is not in control of the knowledge they have access to.



Be it because of their place or time of their birth, the society they were born into, any number of cognitive complications that limit their compensation abilities etc.



None of these are chosen attributes, but they all have a vast impact on access to knowledge.

[T00ts]

As their is no section for philosophy etc this section seemed the most relevant.







You're putting a lot of the weight of Free Will on knowledge, would you accept that what knowledge you have access to is out of your control?

In what way?

[Nalaar]

Sorry as it was in the Religion section that was the assumption I made.

As their is no section for philosophy etc this section seemed the most relevant.

Any free will I guess is based on knowledge, even the choice between good and evil. You might be tempted to steal a chocolate bar off the counter as a child but hopefully a parent would point out the mistake you would be making, so that the next time you had that thought you would hopefully make the right choice.

When it come to a Spiritual free will I believe that we all have an innate spiritual recognition of good and evil on major actions  but from thence it probably depends on training and knowledge. For me that knowledge comes from the Scriptures so perhaps extends rather further than the average depending on what scriptures are included. The free will referred to from the beginning of time refers to the choice to follow either Christ or Satan. A whole different subject.

You're putting a lot of the weight of Free Will on knowledge, would you accept that what knowledge you have access to is out of your control?

[T00ts]

If you want to discuss Free Will only in the context of your god I would be happy to do so. That discussion is certainly very different from the one the OP is intended to be about, but it is no less worthy of discussion.

Sorry as it was in the Religion section that was the assumption I made. Any free will I guess is based on knowledge, even the choice between good and evil. You might be tempted to steal a chocolate bar off the counter as a child but hopefully a parent would point out the mistake you would be making, so that the next time you had that thought you would hopefully make the right choice.

When it come to a Spiritual free will I believe that we all have an innate spiritual recognition of good and evil on major actions  but from thence it probably depends on training and knowledge. For me that knowledge comes from the Scriptures so perhaps extends rather further than the average depending on what scriptures are included. The free will referred to from the beginning of time refers to the choice to follow either Christ or Satan. A whole different subject.

[Nalaar]

I think there is some confusion with this discussion. For my part the free will I refer to is the one that I understand is God given to choose between good and evil. Since few here admit to any belief in God it becomes a little difficult to discuss. My understanding is that we are on earth to make our choice for our future. I believe in Eternal life which will be decided based on the choices I have made here and my repentance for those things that were wrong choices/decisions in the sight of God. I am not quite sure how this compares to the free will that others refer to.

If you want to discuss Free Will only in the context of your god I would be happy to do so. That discussion is certainly very different from the one the OP is intended to be about, but it is no less worthy of discussion.

[T00ts]

I think there is some confusion with this discussion. For my part the free will I refer to is the one that I understand is God given to choose between good and evil. Since few here admit to any belief in God it becomes a little difficult to discuss. My understanding is that we are on earth to make our choice for our future. I believe in Eternal life which will be decided based on the choices I have made here and my repentance for those things that were wrong choices/decisions in the sight of God. I am not quite sure how this compares to the free will that others refer to.

[Nalaar]

According to the scriptures we must have free choice because there would not be any point in the scriptures if it were like one big program that ran its course, as per the outcome is already determined before it runs.

What was the last choice you made with no predetermining factors?