General Brexit discussion thread

[Nick]

You did   , but you know im no fan of Hyper quack quack but at least he has some measure of mathematical political and geographical skills and recognises glasgow is indeed in the island called "britain" unlike our illustrious hero nick by the banks of the ribble.



I mean for christ sake barry , we have all had and have our political differences but to actually question the scottish peoples will to remain in the eu is astounding , and takes a certain amount of head in dirt delusion to do so.

This is the third time I will explain it. Maybe you'll understand it this time.





The name Britain derives from the Roman word Britannia, but there are two conflicting arguments about why the 'Great' was stuck on the front of it. The first is that it is used to distinguish Britain from its similar sounding, but much smaller French neighbour, Brittany. The second reason is due to the ego of a certain King James I, who wanted to make it abundantly clear that he wasn't just the king of the old Roman Britain (which only included England and some of Wales), but of the entire island; thus he referred to himself as King of Great Britain.



Clearly you also don't understand as Barry has pointed out that I was merely beating the Remoaners with their own stick.



Scotland had a turnout of 67% and voted to remain by 62%.

Thats 42% of the population so 58% of Scots didn't vote to remain in the EU. Capire?



This kind of bollox is what we have had for almost 4 years so Connor and his muckers can have it back.

[Thomas]

We've had to put up with the type of statisticians like HQQ who would say that nearly 70% of Scots did not vote to remain.  :roll:

You did   , but you know im no fan of Hyper quack quack but at least he has some measure of mathematical political and geographical skills and recognises glasgow is indeed in the island called "britain" unlike our illustrious hero nick by the banks of the ribble.



I mean for christ sake barry , we have all had and have our political differences but to actually question the scottish peoples will to remain in the eu is astounding , and takes a certain amount of head in dirt delusion to do so.

[Barry]

Somehow 52% uk wide for brexit , or 43 % in the general election for the tories is a massive massive majority which justifies brexit , but 62% in scotland for remain is a tiny minority. :roll:  ::

We've had to put up with the type of statisticians like HQQ who would say that nearly 70% of Scots did not vote to remain.  :roll:

[Thomas]

Yeah but the Scottish electorate size is just under 4 million, compared to 48 million in the wider UK . . . .

You are of course talking to the guy , nick , who famously commented to roars of laughter on our old forum that glasgow/wider scotland isnt in britain.



Somehow 52% uk wide for brexit , or 43 % in the general election for the tories is a massive massive majority which justifies brexit , but 62% in scotland for remain is a tiny minority. :roll:  ::

[Conchúr]

The remain vote in Scotland was a 600,00 majority. That's half the leave majority which is deemed a tiny majority.



All the arguments I used above are the same arguments Remainers have thrown at leave voters for 3.5 years. You can't pick and choose the data you want to examine.

Yeah but the Scottish electorate size is just under 4 million, compared to 48 million in the wider UK . . . .

[Thomas]

Slim majority of Scots now back independence because of Brexit: poll

[/b]





https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-scotland-independence/slim-majority-of-scots-now-back-independence-because-of-brexit-poll-idUSKBN1ZT1TA">https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... SKBN1ZT1TA">https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-scotland-independence/slim-majority-of-scots-now-back-independence-because-of-brexit-poll-idUSKBN1ZT1TA



even in unionist rags...

Brexit still 'unwanted' in Scotland with 67% wanting to stay in EU

[/b]



https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/950425/second-lead-p14-brexit-still-unwanted-by-majority-of-scottish-voters/">https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/po ... sh-voters/">https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/950425/second-lead-p14-brexit-still-unwanted-by-majority-of-scottish-voters/





A five second google will give you the answer to your question to conor nick.

[Nick]

What are you actually talking about now nick?



Scotland was asked the question , like england and the rest of the uk and gibraltar , in 2016 regarding eu membership , and by a massive margin of 62% in support of the eu , voted to remain. That was a majority in all of scotland s 32 council areas.



So what do you mean we have never been asked the question? Is  it convenient to flag up the brexit referendum when it suits , but ignore or deliberately try and erase the bits you dont like?



Further since then , ( and before) no eurosceptic parties have won a vote in scotland  , every time , the tories , ukip/brexit party have been well and truly humped by scottish remain parties in every election.



Except you , i dont believe anyone on this site never nind elswhere actually even questions scottish support for eu membership its been that high for so long now. The last poll i saw had eu membership support as high as 71%.





Show me the question "Should Scotland stay in the EU".  







Scotland doesnt have any debt what are you talking about? First of all under the terms of devolution imposed by your country  , the scottish parliament cannot be "in debt".( of any significance.) It has to run a surplus each and every year.



The fantasy conservative GERS figures that your newspapers crow  about each and every year shows westminster attempting to spin 16 % of the uk population ( the celtic fringe) responsible for 80 % of the uk debt which is laughable rubbish.Even before the oil , as i have posted before , scotland was a major contributor to the uk economy with anything from 40 to 75% of scotlands maoney being spent by your government outside scotland..



https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/20cfigures.jpg">



Scotland is forced to contribute an above eu average 3.5 billion to uk defence , whereas only 2 billion is actually spent in scotland , and at the same time , we are forced to pay for london sewage repairs , westminster and buckingham palace refurbishment , london olympics , hs2 etc etc .



Finally as sweden shows , although euro membership is a criteria for joining the eu , sweden has been deftly avoiding meeting the criteria for adopting euro membership for years now.



55% of scots in 2014 did not vote for indy from the uk  , many of them wanting to remain in the eu. 62 % of scots did not vote for brexit either , and your country is forcing them to choose now.

[Thomas]

Where is your data that says the majority of Scots want Scotland to remain in the EU? They have never been asked that question.



The UK question was almost 4 years ago, Scotland are out and are not even guaranteed to be accepted as a member as their debt is too high. They will also almost certainly be required to join the Euro zone. 60% to 70% of Scots DID NOT vote for independence so your statement is entirely wrong.

What are you actually talking about now nick?



Scotland was asked the question , like england and the rest of the uk and gibraltar , in 2016 regarding eu membership , and by a massive margin of 62% in support of the eu , voted to remain. That was a majority in all of scotland s 32 council areas.



So what do you mean we have never been asked the question? Is  it convenient to flag up the brexit referendum when it suits , but ignore or deliberately try and erase the bits you dont like?



Further since then , ( and before) no eurosceptic parties have won a vote in scotland  , every time , the tories , ukip/brexit party have been well and truly humped by scottish remain parties in every election.



Except you , i dont believe anyone on this site never nind elswhere actually even questions scottish support for eu membership its been that high for so long now. The last poll i saw had eu membership support as high as 71%.

Scotland are out and are not even guaranteed to be accepted as a member as their debt is too high.

Scotland doesnt have any debt what are you talking about? First of all under the terms of devolution imposed by your country  , the scottish parliament cannot be "in debt".( of any significance.) It has to run a surplus each and every year.



The fantasy conservative GERS figures that your newspapers crow  about each and every year shows westminster attempting to spin 16 % of the uk population ( the celtic fringe) responsible for 80 % of the uk debt which is laughable rubbish.Even before the oil , as i have posted before , scotland was a major contributor to the uk economy with anything from 40 to 75% of scotlands maoney being spent by your government outside scotland..



https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/20cfigures.jpg">



Scotland is forced to contribute an above eu average 3.5 billion to uk defence , whereas only 2 billion is actually spent in scotland , and at the same time , we are forced to pay for london sewage repairs , westminster and buckingham palace refurbishment , london olympics , hs2 etc etc .



Finally as sweden shows , although euro membership is a criteria for joining the eu , sweden has been deftly avoiding meeting the criteria for adopting euro membership for years now.



55% of scots in 2014 did not vote for indy from the uk  , many of them wanting to remain in the eu. 62 % of scots did not vote for brexit either , and your country is forcing them to choose now.

[Nick]

Again, this is delving in extreme semantics.  The Scottish vote in the Brexit referendum was overwhelmingly pro-Remain and the Scots have continued to vote in droves for a party which is unequivocally pro-EU.  It is clear that Scotland would have preferred to stay in the EU and, essentially, the fact that you're trying to dilute the meaning of the Scottish vote is indicative of why the unity of the UK has never looked more precarious.  It feeds into the view that the UK is not a "union" of countries at all — merely an anglocentric federal superstate.  Sound familiar to Leavers?



As for the rest of your post, I'm not talking about Scottish independence or whether it's good or bad.  I've simply been responding to a point made on this thread as to why an independent Scotland would seek to join the EU.

The remain vote in Scotland was a 600,00 majority. That's half the leave majority which is deemed a tiny majority.



All the arguments I used above are the same arguments Remainers have thrown at leave voters for 3.5 years. You can't pick and choose the data you want to examine.

[Conchúr]

Where is your data that says the majority of Scots want Scotland to remain in the EU? They have never been asked that question.



The UK question was almost 4 years ago, Scotland are out and are not even guaranteed to be accepted as a member as their debt is too high. They will also almost certainly be required to join the Euro zone. 60% to 70% of Scots DID NOT vote for independence so your statement is entirely wrong.

Again, this is delving in extreme semantics.  The Scottish vote in the Brexit referendum was overwhelmingly pro-Remain and the Scots have continued to vote in droves for a party which is unequivocally pro-EU.  It is clear that Scotland would have preferred to stay in the EU and, essentially, the fact that you're trying to dilute the meaning of the Scottish vote is indicative of why the unity of the UK has never looked more precarious.  It feeds into the view that the UK is not a "union" of countries at all — merely an anglocentric federal superstate.  Sound familiar to Leavers?



As for the rest of your post, I'm not talking about Scottish independence or whether it's good or bad.  I've simply been responding to a point made on this thread as to why an independent Scotland would seek to join the EU.

[Nick]

You are asking why Scotland would ever seek to join the EU and I am giving you a comparative example of its authority as a country / member / jurdisdiction (whatever you want to call it) of the UK versus that afforded to member states of the EU. The majority of Scots do not wish to leave the EU and if they were an independent member state of the EU they would not be leaving.   Within the UK, they are being forced to leave.



So again...when you ask "why would they ever join the EU", I am giving you an example of why.  Scotland would have more veto power over profound EU matters than it does over profound UK constitutional matters.  If you disagree with that, explain why and how it is not the case.

Where is your data that says the majority of Scots want Scotland to remain in the EU? They have never been asked that question.



The UK question was almost 4 years ago, Scotland are out and are not even guaranteed to be accepted as a member as their debt is too high. They will also almost certainly be required to join the Euro zone. 60% to 70% of Scots DID NOT vote for independence so your statement is entirely wrong.

[Conchúr]

Nonsense! Treaty issues are not the only issue which illustrates the lack of democracy in the EU - and  the Council only requires unanimity on a number of matters which the member states consider to be sensitive. For example: foreign and security policy ,and even then, some clearly defined cases still only require qualified majority.

Yep - all such matters are undoubtedly relevant to the mutually beneficial economic  growth.

And guess what, the UK is the member state that has had the MOST 'decisions' foisted upon them because of the lack of unanimity.



No wonder no other group of neighbouring  States have decided to adopt such a ridiculous  set up to supposedly derive economic growth.

 

However, I do believe that Scotland should indeed be allowed another referendum, because leaving the 47 year old union is a significant change....albeit, I then think Scotland should be moved to where NI is and vice versa...as that will permanently solve the border problems.....any Brilliant Civil Engineers around?

And I will say it again — QMV itself was created by a unanimous vote of all the member states.  In other words, all the States agreed to introduce it.  You're making it out that QMV is some kind of weapon used to foist law and regulation on the member states.  The less colorful reality is that all of the member states unanimously decided to bring it in — so its hardly been forced upon them.  The Council is not the only supranational body in the world to vote in this manner — requiring absolute unanimity for every single decision would make things totally unworkable.



And yeah, the UK has been on the losing side of Council decisions more than any other member state, though this still equates to being on the winning side 87% of the time. In any case, the UK's reluctance to certain EU policies has been well known and well-accommodated by the EU.  How many member states had more opt outs from EU policy than the UK?

[Stevlin]

Firstly, the EU treaties cannot be amended without unanimous vote. QMV is not used for amendments to the treaties. In fact, QMV itself was created by unanimous vote, because the voting procedure had to be written into the treaties.  So every Member State unanimously agreed to the adoption of QMV.  



Even at that, when QMV is used, it doesn't change the fact that Scotland would still have a vote — whereas it is onsenense now being deprived of any say on EU policies.  



So essentially, your comment doesn't really counter the point being made.

Nonsense! Treaty issues are not the only issue which illustrates the lack of democracy in the EU - and  the Council only requires unanimity on a number of matters which the member states consider to be sensitive. For example: foreign and security policy ,and even then, some clearly defined cases still only require qualified majority.

Yep - all such matters are undoubtedly relevant to the mutually beneficial economic  growth.

And guess what, the UK is the member state that has had the MOST 'decisions' foisted upon them because of the lack of unanimity.



No wonder no other group of neighbouring  States have decided to adopt such a ridiculous  set up to supposedly derive economic growth.

 

However, I do believe that Scotland should indeed be allowed another referendum, because leaving the 47 year old union is a significant change....albeit, I then think Scotland should be moved to where NI is and vice versa...as that will permanently solve the border problems.....any Brilliant Civil Engineers around?

[Conchúr]

Yeah - but it is hardly surprising that you IGNORE the gradual change in EU 'rules', such as the significant reduction in the range of the power of a vet, which has led  to a dramatic fall in the 'right' of an EU state to democratically represent its citizens.

For example, under qualified majority voting (QMV) no individual Member State can prevent an EU action being introduced, and thereby are unable to prevent  it from being universally adopted, EVEN IF it is disadvantageous to that member state....by definition therefore, the democratically elected individual member states governments are thus UNABLE to DEMOCRATICALLY represent their electorate......a fact which hardly supports any claims of member states being 'democratically governed via the EU.

Firstly, the EU treaties cannot be amended without unanimous vote. QMV is not used for amendments to the treaties. In fact, QMV itself was created by unanimous vote, because the voting procedure had to be written into the treaties.  So every Member State unanimously agreed to the adoption of QMV.  



Even at that, when QMV is used, it doesn't change the fact that Scotland would still have a vote — whereas it is now being deprived of any say on EU policies.  



So essentially, your comment doesn't really counter the point being made.

[Stevlin]

If vetos are a hobby horse of mine, then semantics would appear to be yours - The point still stands — an independent Scotland as a member state would have (among a whole raft of other benefits) veto power over major decisions at the EU level.  As a jurisdiction of the UK however, it has no authority to prevent itself being unwillingly torn out of the EU.  

Yeah - but it is hardly surprising that you IGNORE the gradual change in EU 'rules', such as the significant reduction in the range of the power of a vet, which has led  to a dramatic fall in the 'right' of an EU state to democratically represent its citizens.

For example, under qualified majority voting (QMV) no individual Member State can prevent an EU action being introduced, and thereby are unable to prevent  it from being universally adopted, EVEN IF it is disadvantageous to that member state....by definition therefore, the democratically elected individual member states governments are thus UNABLE to DEMOCRATICALLY represent their electorate......a fact which hardly supports any claims of member states being 'democratically governed via the EU.