Why Labour lost.

[Borg Refinery]

The liberal elite would have stuck two fingers up to Farage et al, told them to STFU and go away. It would have been a result at 52/48 in favour of remain, just as it is a result at 52/48 in favour of leave. I can just imagine Gina Miller having tea with Farage while they discuss their mutual interest in antique furniture and horse racing

I'm still waiting for SRB to explain how I was "afraid of democracy"

Heh, this I posted on Dec 24th 2015, it is eerily prescient..

If you see both sides arguments objectively as I have attempted to, it looks as though you can clearly see that everything rests on Cam's negotiating skills - which are crap.

I repeat: The whole thing is a bloody farce and even if we vote out, the undemocratic types will force referenda on us until we vote to rejoin.

Add to that: no side represents my opinion and you have my reason for abstaining, frankly rather than abstain I'd prefer to start a mass spoilt ballot campaign so that our politicians get a stern message. They'd ignore it anyway so it'd still be pointless.

You would pretty much never find me on the same side of any campaign as David Cameron, not under any circumstance.

I figured that whether Brexit or Remain the Tories would feck the negotiations up either way, which I still maintain to be true. Nonetheless, when the ref happened I said uncertainty will hurt the economy more than anything else, so we should get everything finished in less than 6 months after mid-2016. I didn't really care whether it was Brexit or not. The EU is better off without countries that constantly try to grind it into the dust, and we are better off with certainty..

But that doesn't justify in any way, Russia or the Leave campaign's record-breaking law-breaking hacking, manipulation and cheating.

[Sheepy]

I'm still waiting for SRB to explain how I was "afraid of democracy"

Respect where it due Dawg, you have always said you voted remain and have also said you accept the rule of democracy that you accept a result by majority of the electorate, which to move forward in a real democracy we need, like I have always said if it had gone the other way, we would have backed the majority of the electorate hands down. I get one of those feelings when you were denounced as far right it was an eye opener.

[Borg Refinery]

BS.

I accepted that Boris won the '19 GE..effectively showing that people embraced the result. I said no deal is pretty much their course and there's no fighting it anymore.

It's true that prior to that I was skeptical, but that's irrelevant. Farage himself said "a 48/52 result would be unfinished business by a long way" and hinted that Brexiters would challenge the result if they got 48% of the result.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681

As it turned out, the results were reversed.

And you would have listened to Nigel Farage? And the remainer elite would have listened to Nigel Farage? Oh yes, I can just see it now...

I've never listened to Farage, so definitely not.

My point was not that either side was in the right, but that they're both exactly the same when it comes to demanding to have things their own way despite the result.

That's all I'm suggesting. And you can see the same thing in Scotland.. And for the record, as I've explained to Thomas before (ignored completely), I didn't like the Remain campaigners at all nor any of their messages. Their entire idea was to be snobby and elitist and walk all over people who disagreed (just like the Brexit govt are doing now) and to use hyperbole to scare people.

"Oh of course Nige, you're right...52/48 is far too narrow a win for Remain, so we agree, there absolutely must be another referendum..."

We've no way of knowing though, have we? Because remain lost, and remainers are now claiming that democracy is invalid unless we have more democracy? Where does that end?

If there is any "BS" thats it. The liberal elite would have stuck two fingers up to Farage et al, told them to STFU and go away. It would have been a result at 52/48 in favour of remain, just as it is a result at 52/48 in favour of leave.

No, you are absolutely correct, they'd be saying the exact same things Brexiters are saying right now.. "get lost - we won".

I personally didn't believe the question was fully resolved until the 2019 GE. But now it's unequivocal. I am a Europhile but certainly had nothing to do with the Remain campaign at any point in 2016, in fact I criticised them for appointing Cameron & Osborne (the single biggest reason to vote Brexit IMHO..) to de facto head the Remain campaign and Goldman Sachs who yet again, lent firepower to the Brexit campaign with their endorsement of Remain.

Here's a thread post of mine from another forum dated Dec 2015

"What's the point in voting on the EU referendum?

Cam has proven to be quite useless at negotiating. Every time he has been asked he has been found wanting; from NI, to Africa to Brussels.

If we stay in, the reforms will be bs, if we go for brexit, the reforms will be bs. We have absolutely no control over this other than in lobbying MP's to push for a vote of no confidence. . . .

Thoughts?"

I always maintained that the ref was a diversionary issue designed to keep em' in power and for people to fall in line with, and support opposing sides of the (Tory led) camps. It has worked perfectly, IMHO as Cameron the secret Brexiter intended..

Edit: And here's a post from a pro-Brexit Tory fella -

"Maybe Cameron wants to fail !

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-dont-misread-eurosceptic-david-cameron-over-brexit-boris-johnson-warns-a6772006.html "

I agree with that 100%.

[DeppityDawg]

BS.

I accepted that Boris won the '19 GE..effectively showing that people embraced the result. I said no deal is pretty much their course and there's no fighting it anymore.

It's true that prior to that I was skeptical, but that's irrelevant. Farage himself said "a 48/52 result would be unfinished business by a long way" and hinted that Brexiters would challenge the result if they got 48% of the result.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681

As it turned out, the results were reversed.

And you would have listened to Nigel Farage? And the remainer elite would have listened to Nigel Farage? Oh yes, I can just see it now...

"Oh of course Nige, you're right...52/48 is far too narrow a win for Remain, so we agree, there absolutely must be another referendum..."

We've no way of knowing though, have we? Because remain lost, and remainers are now claiming that democracy is invalid unless we have more democracy? Where does that end?

If there is any "BS" thats it. The liberal elite would have stuck two fingers up to Farage et al, told them to STFU and go away. It would have been a result at 52/48 in favour of remain, just as it is a result at 52/48 in favour of leave. I can just imagine Gina Miller having tea with Farage while they discuss their mutual interest in antique furniture and horse racing

I'm still waiting for SRB to explain how I was "afraid of democracy"

[Borg Refinery]

Not only that I didn't want dawgs question disappearing without an honest answer, which we could be waiting a while.

You could be sheep. Dyno from memory didnt accept the brexit referendum result , like many others we know on these forums , and SRB clearly told us the other week he wanted a second referendum .

The honest answer from both is that they only respect demcoracy when they win, but  i doubt you will get the honest answer.

BS.

I accepted that Boris won the '19 GE..effectively showing that people embraced the result. I said no deal is pretty much their course and there's no fighting it anymore.

It's true that prior to that I was skeptical, but that's irrelevant. Farage himself said "a 48/52 result would be unfinished business by a long way" and hinted that Brexiters would challenge the result if they got 48% of the result.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681

As it turned out, the results were reversed.

[Borg Refinery]

To be clear, it is possible simultaneously to be English, British, European, and a citizen of planet Earth.

To be English does not automatically make me a little Englander nationalist, merely a born and bred inhabitant of England

To be British does not automatically make me a hard core unionist, merely an inhabitant of an island known as Britain, an island shared by the English, Scottish, and Welsh, which will remain geographically true regardless of whether any part of it becomes politically independent.

To be European does not automatically make me a committed EU fanatic, merely a resident of an island geographically considered to be a part of Europe. This has been true for thousands of years, long before the EU ever existed.

To be a citizen of planet Earth does not make me some happy clappy hippy, merely someone who is a member of the human race who lives with all the rest of us on planet Earth.

Some - and our resident angry Scot Thomas is a serial offender - are prone to reading far too much into such multiple identities, especially if they reject any of them themselves. Because in reality - much as he pretends otherwise - as an inhabitant of the northern part of the island of Britain, Thomas too is British in fact, as well as Scottish. He simply rejects all that he chooses to associate with that label, whilst for me being British is little more than a geographical fact that implies nothing further.

Thomas is the one reading far to much meaning into it and thus inventing a straw man. Because I live on an island called Britain I must be an ardent unionist? Utter horse crap. Lmfao

I don't think it makes you a 'hardcore' unionist but surely your belief that Labour ought to be in power in Scotland, and your being against Scotland leaving makes you a unionist?

Not having a dig, just clarifying.

[srb7677]

Yes the SNP has made Scotland a better place, often with policies you'd deride as hard left in England. None of which, however, makes Thomas any less confused and angry.

Apart from an understandable desire to kick the Labour party in the wedding tackle, I don't see Tommy as being angry. And he has a pretty clear idea of what he wants, which is Scottish independence, for which he is prepared to make allies wherever he can find them.

On the other hand Steve, you appear to have dream of a never ending civil war in the Labour party, with coups and factions and plotting in the public bar over half pints and roll ups and all the rest. All good fun and it should keep the left out of power for the foreseeable future, but I don't see it as being particularly clear sighted.
[/quote]We on the left, like Thomas, believe in something. Unfortunately there are many on the right of our party who don't, or who aspire to something very different and alien to the left, eg making Thatcherism work better. We cannot have what we believe in without taking them on, sadly.

[Borchester]

Yes the SNP has made Scotland a better place, often with policies you'd deride as hard left in England. None of which, however, makes Thomas any less confused and angry.
[/quote]

Apart from an understandable desire to kick the Labour party in the wedding tackle, I don't see Tommy as being angry. And he has a pretty clear idea of what he wants, which is Scottish independence, for which he is prepared to make allies wherever he can find them.

On the other hand Steve, you appear to have dream of a never ending civil war in the Labour party, with coups and factions and plotting in the public bar over half pints and roll ups and all the rest. All good fun and it should keep the left out of power for the foreseeable future, but I don't see it as being particularly clear sighted.

[Sheepy]

I hate the brit left because every one of you are unionist to the core.

You are talking shit right there. I am British and left. And I am not unionist to the core. I am democratic to the core, and believe the democratic will of the Scots or anyone else should be respected. As far as Scottish independence is concerned I don't really regard it as very much of my business, and would be happy enough to honour whatever they decide.

If I had to give a personal view I think the Scots are a good source of progressive left votes - whether that be for the SNP or not but definitely anti-Tory. I would be sorry to see Scotland leave (though losing you would sweeten the pill slightly, ). But it's a decision for the Scots. I'd prefer it if non Scots not resident in Scotland stayed out of any Scottish referendum campaign.

I know mate, he really is spouting the weirdest crapola I've seen in some time.

I think you're right..he's just hopelessly confused and lashing out in any which direction.

He is indeed hopelessly confused in his rants. On the one hand he rejects the very notion of Britishness, with anyone who thinks of themselves as British supposedly being a hopeless unionist. Yet he defends and supports the Brexit vote as a British vote, even though his own nation rejected it. Lmfao.

He also claims to hate the left, even though the SNP is mostly a left leaning party.

Is he, do you deny the SNP has made Scotland a better place, despite Westminster politics not because of?

Yes the SNP has made Scotland a better place, often with policies you'd deride as hard left in England. None of which, however, makes Thomas any less confused and angry.

Funnily enough so would you, unless of course you now admit National socialist policies work. Which is exactly what Labour did after WW2.

[DeppityDawg]

No. I advocated our final departure terms having a democratic mandate. You were afraid of democracy just in case you didn't get the result you wanted. Yes I am democratic to the core. Not so sure about you.

I was one of the ones advocating more democracy here, not you.

Is that right? So how was I "afraid of democracy" exactly?

[srb7677]

I hate the brit left because every one of you are unionist to the core.

You are talking shit right there. I am British and left. And I am not unionist to the core. I am democratic to the core, and believe the democratic will of the Scots or anyone else should be respected. As far as Scottish independence is concerned I don't really regard it as very much of my business, and would be happy enough to honour whatever they decide.

If I had to give a personal view I think the Scots are a good source of progressive left votes - whether that be for the SNP or not but definitely anti-Tory. I would be sorry to see Scotland leave (though losing you would sweeten the pill slightly, ). But it's a decision for the Scots. I'd prefer it if non Scots not resident in Scotland stayed out of any Scottish referendum campaign.

I know mate, he really is spouting the weirdest crapola I've seen in some time.

I think you're right..he's just hopelessly confused and lashing out in any which direction.

He is indeed hopelessly confused in his rants. On the one hand he rejects the very notion of Britishness, with anyone who thinks of themselves as British supposedly being a hopeless unionist. Yet he defends and supports the Brexit vote as a British vote, even though his own nation rejected it. Lmfao.

He also claims to hate the left, even though the SNP is mostly a left leaning party.

Is he, do you deny the SNP has made Scotland a better place, despite Westminster politics not because of?

Yes the SNP has made Scotland a better place, often with policies you'd deride as hard left in England. None of which, however, makes Thomas any less confused and angry.

[srb7677]

To be clear, it is possible simultaneously to be English, British, European, and a citizen of planet Earth.

To be English does not automatically make me a little Englander nationalist, merely a born and bred inhabitant of England

To be British does not automatically make me a hard core unionist, merely an inhabitant of an island known as Britain, an island shared by the English, Scottish, and Welsh, which will remain geographically true regardless of whether any part of it becomes politically independent.

To be European does not automatically make me a committed EU fanatic, merely a resident of an island geographically considered to be a part of Europe. This has been true for thousands of years, long before the EU ever existed.

To be a citizen of planet Earth does not make me some happy clappy hippy, merely someone who is a member of the human race who lives with all the rest of us on planet Earth.

Some - and our resident angry Scot Thomas is a serial offender - are prone to reading far too much into such multiple identities, especially if they reject any of them themselves. Because in reality - much as he pretends otherwise - as an inhabitant of the northern part of the island of Britain, Thomas too is British in fact, as well as Scottish. He simply rejects all that he chooses to associate with that label, whilst for me being British is little more than a geographical fact that implies nothing further.

Thomas is the one reading far to much meaning into it and thus inventing a straw man. Because I live on an island called Britain I must be an ardent unionist? Utter horse crap. Lmfao

[Sheepy]

I hate the brit left because every one of you are unionist to the core.

You are talking shit right there. I am British and left. And I am not unionist to the core. I am democratic to the core, and believe the democratic will of the Scots or anyone else should be respected. As far as Scottish independence is concerned I don't really regard it as very much of my business, and would be happy enough to honour whatever they decide.

If I had to give a personal view I think the Scots are a good source of progressive left votes - whether that be for the SNP or not but definitely anti-Tory. I would be sorry to see Scotland leave (though losing you would sweeten the pill slightly, ). But it's a decision for the Scots. I'd prefer it if non Scots not resident in Scotland stayed out of any Scottish referendum campaign.

I know mate, he really is spouting the weirdest crapola I've seen in some time.

I think you're right..he's just hopelessly confused and lashing out in any which direction.

He is indeed hopelessly confused in his rants. On the one hand he rejects the very notion of Britishness, with anyone who thinks of themselves as British supposedly being a hopeless unionist. Yet he defends and supports the Brexit vote as a British vote, even though his own nation rejected it. Lmfao.

He also claims to hate the left, even though the SNP is mostly a left leaning party.

Is he, do you deny the SNP has made Scotland a better place, despite Westminster politics not because of?

[Sheepy]

LOL that will be it then, we remainers only tell the truth, but we forgot to tell the truth for 5 decades, so you leavers are liars, we are very democratic but only if we win. But you have lost four elections by saying and doing the same things, you have lost a referendum which you couldn't possibly lose but of course you were listening, to your own rhetoric.

[srb7677]

The Brexit vote was won on a tissue of false promises. There was therefore a good argument for asking the people to confirm or reject the final outcome once the facts became known. But Leavers were transparently scared that some might have changed their minds. They were thus the ones running scared from democracy.

So in other words, you are "democratic to the core" only when it suits you

No. I advocated our final departure terms having a democratic mandate. You were afraid of democracy just in case you didn't get the result you wanted. Yes I am democratic to the core. Not so sure about you.

I was one of the ones advocating more democracy here, not you.