Vlad you're not in opposition

[Borg Refinery]

You seem to be suggesting it's a false flag by the west by proxy just to make Putin look bad.

I am merely suggesting proving anything is next to impossible.  In this instance Navalny has publicly accused so many powerful and VERY rich people of being corrupt crooked bastards there is a long list of suspects to eliminate before Putin.

The post was addressed to Sampanbombaybermuda, mein freund.

You have stated your position many times now, roger that, recv'd loud and clear

[papasmurf]

You seem to be suggesting it's a false flag by the west by proxy just to make Putin look bad.

I am merely suggesting proving anything is next to impossible.  In this instance Navalny has publicly accused so many powerful and VERY rich people of being corrupt crooked bastards there is a long list of suspects to eliminate before Putin.

[Borg Refinery]

There is some logic in the argument, but surely the Novichok group is generally restricted to Russians?

All "Novichok" means is new. There are at least 100 variants. The other point being where the Russian nerve agent laboratories were (USSR), they no longer are since the USSR split.

So who else did it and why then?

As papa says, the Novichok range of agents are a least 40 years old and the west has had access to them for over thirty years, via ex soviet republics. The fact an agent can be identified, means that the west has samples or stores of these agents against which the signature can be tested against for identification. Any developed country that knows the formula can easily make them. Its just a little bit of Hollywood theatrics that calls them by a Russian name, just to reinforce any desired message.

So when and what other countries have been proven to have used Novichok variants in killings?

You seem to be suggesting it's a false flag by the west by proxy just to make Putin look bad.

[Borg Refinery]

Ha you don't have to worry about my getting lonely, I have millions of populists for company.
just so you know I have eyes in the back of my head.

Talking to yourself again sheepy?

[Sheepy]

Ha you don't have to worry about my getting lonely, I have millions of populists for company.
just so you know I have eyes in the back of my head.

[papasmurf]

Its just a little bit of Hollywood theatrics that calls them by a Russian name, just to reinforce any desired message.

Precisely. I suspect the OPCW has only just become reluctantly  involved in the Navalny case because like the Salisbury incident the OPCW won't be able to identify the precise "Novichok" variant and therefore will not be able to precisely identify the source.

[Sampanviking]

There is some logic in the argument, but surely the Novichok group is generally restricted to Russians?

All "Novichok" means is new. There are at least 100 variants. The other point being where the Russian nerve agent laboratories were (USSR), they no longer are since the USSR split.

So who else did it and why then?

As papa says, the Novichok range of agents are a least 40 years old and the west has had access to them for over thirty years, via ex soviet republics. The fact an agent can be identified, means that the west has samples or stores of these agents against which the signature can be tested against for identification. Any developed country that knows the formula can easily make them. Its just a little bit of Hollywood theatrics that calls them by a Russian name, just to reinforce any desired message.

[Sheepy]

So old Putin the poisoner has been at it again and it's never been mentioned.
Still the Russians have done us no harm eh or the Beeb are lying?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54002880

Well I look at it like in my bedroom with nothing better to do politics, Whereas in the real world, things move and change all of the time, Vlad needs a finger in US politics so he keeps one, the Israelis are working trump like a puppet, the Chinese  need the upper imperial hand and the Israelis want everyone to agree with them over Jerusalem, so when Trump gives them land they don't own, Vlad has to back off, when they have to start making peace with neighbours because they have a growing populism problem and need to work Trump they do. When they put Iran in the firing line, they find out they are armed with things they never knew existed, Vlad makes a casual remark letting them know it will be the final red line. So they then know they need to go another way about it, so for all of Trump and Bennies bluster, they are doing things in a manner that is acceptable not for their own aggrandisement for a change. Its just politics not rocket science.
although of course they see themselves as brilliant and the intelligent ones.

[papasmurf]

So who else did it and why then?

If antidotes are to be found any country that thought they might be a target.

[Borg Refinery]

There is some logic in the argument, but surely the Novichok group is generally restricted to Russians?

All "Novichok" means is new. There are at least 100 variants. The other point being where the Russian nerve agent laboratories were (USSR), they no longer are since the USSR split.

So who else did it and why then?

[papasmurf]

There is some logic in the argument, but surely the Novichok group is generally restricted to Russians?

All "Novichok" means is new. There are at least 100 variants. The other point being where the Russian nerve agent laboratories were (USSR), they no longer are since the USSR split.

[Borg Refinery]

OK Ill bite

Is there any actual verified evidence for this?
Quite a feat to use the agent safely in the presence of his inner circle and without poising half of them as well. Not to mention the Russian doctors.
Why on earth would they let him out the country if they did need to? Why not just keep him tucked out of sight on Russia and let him die?

Why would they bother in the first place? The MSM big him up as a great opposition leader but he is not a leader of an official opposition with real political presence?

Would anyone else want an excuse to act against a Russian interest? Well the yanks are pissed with the Germans for going ahead with the Nordstream Gas pipe.
Would Mike "I lie, cheat and steal" Pompeo be shy of doing something like this?

So you honestly think the yanks did this then?

I have no idea what was done or who did it or why. I just find the MSM narrative on this as unconvincing as it has been in relation to so many other things and events over the last few decades.
The fact that the yanks have tried to argue that Nordstream2 should be cancelled because if it, should not be ignored.
Follow the money as they say or who benefits? I don't see any benefit to the Russian state, by doing this.
I would add that the rather stony and embarrassed (as in watching something cringe worthy) silence from much of the rest of the world, suggests that few countries are taking these accusations seriously.

There is some logic in the argument, but surely the Novichok group is generally restricted to Russians? Also they have a thing for high profile stuff to scare off would be's.

...Another theory is that it wasn't Putin but a rival oligarchic type who Navalny pissed off as he had many enemies.

[Sampanviking]

OK Ill bite

Is there any actual verified evidence for this?
Quite a feat to use the agent safely in the presence of his inner circle and without poising half of them as well. Not to mention the Russian doctors.
Why on earth would they let him out the country if they did need to? Why not just keep him tucked out of sight on Russia and let him die?

Why would they bother in the first place? The MSM big him up as a great opposition leader but he is not a leader of an official opposition with real political presence?

Would anyone else want an excuse to act against a Russian interest? Well the yanks are pissed with the Germans for going ahead with the Nordstream Gas pipe.
Would Mike "I lie, cheat and steal" Pompeo be shy of doing something like this?

So you honestly think the yanks did this then?

I have no idea what was done or who did it or why. I just find the MSM narrative on this as unconvincing as it has been in relation to so many other things and events over the last few decades.
The fact that the yanks have tried to argue that Nordstream2 should be cancelled because if it, should not be ignored.
Follow the money as they say or who benefits? I don't see any benefit to the Russian state, by doing this.
I would add that the rather stony and embarrassed (as in watching something cringe worthy) silence from much of the rest of the world, suggests that few countries are taking these accusations seriously.

[Sampanviking]

Why on earth would they let him out the country

Seriously?

What do you think his wife would think (and broadcast to the world) if he just never came home again?
Do it outside of the CCCP and it couldn't  possible be them.
Last time I travelled to Russia they almost stopped me entering the country cause there was a stamp in my passport that was blurred. Border force in the States with DT's.

Think you should go and experience Russia and then comment.

That does not really make much sense.
He was already in a Russian hospital and all they had to do was continue to say he could not be moved.
As for your encounter with a picky immigration officer, I fail to see the relevance to the topic in hand

Why on earth would they let him out the country if they did need to? Why not just keep him tucked out of sight on Russia and let him die?

Why would they bother in the first place? The MSM big him up as a great opposition leader but he is not a leader of an official opposition with real political presence?

Once again Putin/The Kremlin/Russia have proved they can get at anyone who upsets the boss/godfather. Those, who have reason to be scared, know that any denials are just part of the game...

So the argument that Putin is just a bad man and that anything he does, no matter how counter productive or nonsensical, is because its what bad me do. Pretty self serving narrative and straight out of 1984.
If nothing else, just look at the response to the alleged attack on the Skripals and all the Cross contamination and counter measures. This time nobody else present was exposed and no doctors treating him without NBC clothing were also contaminated. Yet nobody wants to talk about this.

[Borg Refinery]

OK Ill bite

Is there any actual verified evidence for this?
Quite a feat to use the agent safely in the presence of his inner circle and without poising half of them as well. Not to mention the Russian doctors.
Why on earth would they let him out the country if they did need to? Why not just keep him tucked out of sight on Russia and let him die?

Why would they bother in the first place? The MSM big him up as a great opposition leader but he is not a leader of an official opposition with real political presence?

Would anyone else want an excuse to act against a Russian interest? Well the yanks are pissed with the Germans for going ahead with the Nordstream Gas pipe.
Would Mike "I lie, cheat and steal" Pompeo be shy of doing something like this?

So you honestly think the yanks did this then?