political prisoners in the eu.

[Baron von Lotsov]

No, you did not mention the 10,000 summarily executed by machine guns by the Chinese State Army.

That's right, because there is no evidence of it.

Amnesty International's estimates put the number of deaths at between several hundred and close to 1,000,[2][7] while a Western diplomat who compiled estimates put the number at 300 to 1,000.[5] In a widely reported declassified cable sent in the aftermath of the events at Tiananmen, British Ambassador Sir Alan Donald initially claimed, based on information from a "good friend" in the China State Council, that a minimum of 10,000 civilians died,[180] an estimated number much higher than other sources.[181] After this declassification, former student protest leader Feng Congde pointed out Sir Donald later revised his estimate to 2,700–3,400 deaths, a number more consistent with other estimates.[182]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests#Death_toll">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tian ... Death_toll">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests#Death_toll



Oh and by the way, do read on.

The restrictions on society were loosened only a few years after the protests, especially after Deng's 1992 "southern tour".[216] Privately run print media again flourished. Private newspapers increased from 250 in the 1980s to over 7,000 by 2003. Provincially run satellite TV stations sprung up all over the country and challenged the market share of state-run CCTV.[217] The leadership also stepped away from promoting communism as an all-encompassing belief system. State-approved religious organizations increased their membership significantly, and traditional beliefs suppressed during the Mao era re-appeared.[217] This state-sanctioned plurality also created the environment for unsanctioned forms of spirituality and worship to grow.[218] In order to reduce the need for controversial methods of state control, while Protestants, Buddhists, and Taoists were largely left alone, the state often used these 'approved' denominations to "fight against cults" such as Falun Gong, playing sects off each other.[218]



As the party departed from the orthodox communism it was founded upon, much of its attention was focused on the cultivation of nationalism as an alternative ideology.[219] This policy largely succeeded in tying the party's legitimacy to China's "national pride", turning domestic public opinion back in its favour.[220] This is perhaps most prominently seen in May 1999, when the United States bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade.[221] The bombings saw an outpouring of nationalist sentiment and increased support for the party as the foremost advocate of China's national interest.[221]

See, things turned out OK in the end after an initial clampdown to maintain law and order, e.g. control of the press.



China is a relatively young modern nation. The parents of my brother's wife lived in a time without running water or electricity. They are rich now and can afford to visit our country and dump almost a container full of shopping for their daughter. The main thing is they are no longer communist, but have discovered the delights of capitalism. They are on the road to freedom, where we pass them going the other way.

[johnofgwent]

Well, ACTUALLY I said three things



First, I said Scotland, like ANY third party country, which is what it WOULD have been, WOULD have been required to sign-up to the protocols in place for ANY applicant, which included a commitment to EVENTUAL adoption of the Euro. NOT immediately, but eventually.



Secondly, I said that Scotland free of the Act of Union would be an independent sovereign state free at the point of departure to choose at that moment to use any currency it wished, including the British Pound, until the EU started in due course to apply pressure to force them Euro-ward. I pointed to several independent nation states that adopt the US dollar for their convenience. I pointed to the fact these independent nations were at the mercy of global currency movements and had no political input to the fiscal and other policies that set the worth of the dollar and thus the price they got for each kilo of bananas that were their main export.



And thirdly I said that there was absolutely no way on this earth a great Britain minus Scotland would stand as Scotland's bank of last resort.which was another thing Salmand said but avoided detailed discussion of.



And finally I said if the residents of Scotland, having had these facts placed before them still wished to depart, I wished them well although it was my belief things would be far from smooth running, but it was entirely possible an independent Scotland might eventually flourish .....

[Barry]

I'm not forgetting the death sentence. I included it in my quote.

Tip: try reading the whole post!

No, you did not mention the 10,000 summarily executed by machine guns by the Chinese State Army.

[Baron von Lotsov]

I think you are forgetting the death sentence for 10,000 or more that were massacred by your friends in China 30 years ago.

I'm not forgetting the death sentence. I included it in my quote.

Tip: try reading the whole post!

[Barry]

Hmm very interesting. He was the leader. Lets do an historical comparison:



From Wikipedia's account of the aftermath of Tienanmen Square

"The authorities carried out mass arrests. Many of the workers were summarily tried and executed. In contrast, the students—many of whom came from relatively affluent backgrounds and were well-connected—received much lighter sentences. Wang Dan, the student leader who topped the most wanted list, spent seven years in prison. Many of the students and university staff implicated were permanently politically stigmatized, some never to be employed again.[187]"



So that's 7 years for Tienanmen Square vs. 16 years for a referendum.

I think you are forgetting the death sentence for 10,000 or more that were massacred by your friends in China 30 years ago.

[Thomas]

Just to clarify something...



The only "involvement" I know of that Barosso had was to correct Alex Salmand's rose tinted propaganda of how things would be in a Scotland that tore up the Act of Union.



I confess I didn't give much time to the man at the time, mainly because I was at the time half blind and rapidly approaching going bankrupt thanks to the wait for the cataract op. So what else did he say ....

There was nothing rose tinted about it. Just to clarify john , we have the endless pish about the eu not interfering in  domestic affairs of member states , and the barrosos intervention was simply one small example of the contrary.



From memory he was asked to pour cold water on scottish indy by cameron in return for cameron backing him for a head role in NATO if i remember correctly.



I dont think you are someone to come to for advice on rose tinted annoncements john when you were claiming scotland at the time would be forced to join the euro  , another rode tinted unionist announcement without foundation which was subsequently disproved.

[Baron von Lotsov]

 





https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2019/10/11/world/europe/11reuters-spain-politics-catalonia-jailed-leader-wife.html">https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2019/10 ... -wife.html">https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2019/10/11/world/europe/11reuters-spain-politics-catalonia-jailed-leader-wife.html

Hmm very interesting. He was the leader. Lets do an historical comparison:



From Wikipedia's account of the aftermath of Tienanmen Square

"The authorities carried out mass arrests. Many of the workers were summarily tried and executed. In contrast, the students—many of whom came from relatively affluent backgrounds and were well-connected—received much lighter sentences. Wang Dan, the student leader who topped the most wanted list, spent seven years in prison. Many of the students and university staff implicated were permanently politically stigmatized, some never to be employed again.[187]"



So that's 7 years for Tienanmen Square vs. 16 years for a referendum.

[johnofgwent]

::  ::  ::





Can always rely on you patman to spout off media propaganda cant we?



Not only have we seen the eu get involved in the scottish indy ref as per my example of manuel barroso , they arent slow in making comment about both member states and non member states when it suits yet strangely have remained largely silent over the disgrace that is happening in catalonia?











We had views of spains policia national in full body armour assaulting some old guy  with a walking stick with batons , while at the same time guy verhofstadt was tweeting about a strong spain in a strong europe for spanish national day while remianing silent on abuses being commited on the catalans.



I think you will find the limp risted excuse of the eu not getting involved in the internal politics of member and non member states doesnt wash. :roll:

Just to clarify something...



The only "involvement" I know of that Barosso had was to correct Alex Salmand's rose tinted propaganda of how things would be in a Scotland that tore up the Act of Union.



I confess I didn't give much time to the man at the time, mainly because I was at the time half blind and rapidly approaching going bankrupt thanks to the wait for the cataract op. So what else did he say ....

[Thomas]

While pat defends the silence of the eu , we have international organisations like amnesty international calling for the release of the catalan prisoners...

"There is no justification for keeping Jordi Sànchez and Jordi Cuixart in pre-trial detention and we reiterate our call for their immediate release. Amnesty International believes their continued detention constitutes a disproportionate restriction on their rights to free speech and peaceful assembly."

[/b]



https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/10/spain-a-year-after-their-detention-the-jordis-should-be-released/">https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... -released/">https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/10/spain-a-year-after-their-detention-the-jordis-should-be-released/





and even some in the uk media calling for europe to condemn the repression of the catalans...

Europe must condemn the repression of the Catalans



The European Union appears to have washed its hands of Catalonia. Brussels regards it as an internal matter. The outspoken Guy Verhofstadt, who has not been slow to comment on the "internal affairs" of authoritarian countries from Hungary to Hong Kong, has been silent on the most egregious violation of basic civil rights seen in Europe since the creation of the EU.



The EU is supposed to uphold the European Convention on Human Rights. Its own Charter of Fundamental Rights includes, under Article 12, on political freedom: "the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association at all levels, in particular in political, trade union and civic matters"

[/b].





https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17971449.europe-must-condemn-repression-catalans/?ref=twtrec">https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/179 ... ref=twtrec">https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17971449.europe-must-condemn-repression-catalans/?ref=twtrec

[Thomas]

Or it could be that the EU does not get involved in the internal politics of its member states...

 ::  ::  ::





Can always rely on you patman to spout off media propaganda cant we?



Not only have we seen the eu get involved in the scottish indy ref as per my example of manuel barroso , they arent slow in making comment about both member states and non member states when it suits yet strangely have remained largely silent over the disgrace that is happening in catalonia?

Guy Verhofstadt

‏

Verified account

 

@guyverhofstadt

Follow Follow @guyverhofstadt

MoreGuy Verhofstadt Retweeted AFP news agency

Russia is turning into a dictatorship. Putin is panicking, because he sees that his illiberal policies don't work. Not in Russia, not in Hungary and Poland. The people will simply not accept it. Let's hope this nightmare is over soon. Let us all support Navalny.

[/b]



We had views of spains policia national in full body armour assaulting some old guy  with a walking stick with batons , while at the same time guy verhofstadt was tweeting about a strong spain in a strong europe for spanish national day while remianing silent on abuses being commited on the catalans.



I think you will find the limp risted excuse of the eu not getting involved in the internal politics of member and non member states doesnt wash. :roll:

[Barry]

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/10/16/album/1571211960_898505.html#foto_gal_2">//https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/10/16/album/1571211960_898505.html#foto_gal_2

Dramatic pictures from Cataluña.  

[Cassie]

^^^

You know that for a fact?

Plus Brexit is not only a UK event since the UK has advisers recommending it leaves without honouring its contractual agreements...

I don't know if that was directed at me or not.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v3xruukans">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v3xruukans  Guy Verhofstadt speech at the UK Liberal Democrats conference [14.09.2019]

[patman post]

^^^

You know that for a fact?

Plus Brexit is not only a UK event since the UK has advisers recommending it leaves without honouring its contractual agreements...

[Cassie]

What about accepting a letter form the LIb Undems asking them not to give the UK a deal? Worse still, what about guy verhofstadt speaking at the Lib Undem conference?

[T00ts]

Or it could be that the EU does not get involved in the internal politics of its member states...

Really so why are they taking advice from Bliar et al in order to stymie brexit?

 :hattip