Macron is really miffed

[Sheepy]

What are you talking about, make sense. All we know is AUS is possibly in breach of contract and separately is having a security pact with 2 other countries
One of these things involves France.
Neither of these things involves the EU.
One of these things involves USA and the UK.
Both things involve AUS.

The truth Gerry which it seems you are a stranger with.

[GerryT]

Oh I see, what about the Australians don't they get a say? I think that might be the problem, they are having one.

What are you talking about, make sense. All we know is AUS is possibly in breach of contract and separately is having a security pact with 2 other countries
One of these things involves France.
Neither of these things involves the EU.
One of these things involves USA and the UK.
Both things involve AUS.

[GerryT]

and the aussies are happy with that. Aussies senators are saying the deal has been trouble from the start , they have been talking seriously since june about pulling out , and they know there will be an exit fee , but that paying this fee is substantially less than the cost of continuing.
https://www.politico.eu/article/why-australia-wanted-out-of-its-french-sub-deal/

You would think they (AUS) would have sorted that out before deciding to place contracts with USA. But the prob haven't and prob won't until they know what the damage might be. I doubt this will be a simple fix.

[Thomas]

. If Australia are just walking away because they now prefer to have Nuclear then Aus are in for a bog payout.

and the aussies are happy with that. Aussies senators are saying the deal has been trouble from the start , they have been talking seriously since june about pulling out , and they know there will be an exit fee , but that paying this fee is substantially less than the cost of continuing.

Why Australia wanted out of its French submarine deal

Canberra has signaled for months it was seeking to walk away over cost blowouts and delays.


South Australian Senator Rex Patrick, a fierce critic of the French project, told local media that Canberra had already spent about 2 billion Australian dollars (around €1.24 billion) on the project.

"There will be an exit fee," Patrick told the ABC Thursday. "But the cost of doing that [walking away] is substantially less than continuing in my view."

https://www.politico.eu/article/why-australia-wanted-out-of-its-french-sub-deal/

[Sheepy]

So what.
We're talking about a contract between France and Aus. In reality it has nothing to do with USA or UK. The USA-Aus-UK pact is a different thing, and has nothing to do with France or the EU.

Oh I see, what about the Australians don't they get a say? I think that might be the problem, they are having one.

[GerryT]

What you mean you cannot show us where the Chinese take a blind bit of notice of western politicians playing politics with them? Because they don't Gerry, they are communists who are on a global mission. They also find western politics weak and ineffectual because they openly say so.

So what.
We're talking about a contract between France and Aus. In reality it has nothing to do with USA or UK. The USA-Aus-UK pact is a different thing, and has nothing to do with France or the EU.

[Sheepy]

That makes no sense what so ever

What you mean you cannot show us where the Chinese take a blind bit of notice of western politicians playing politics with them? Because they don't Gerry, they are communists who are on a global mission. They also find western politics weak and ineffectual because they openly say so.

[GerryT]

That depends on the design of the pumps, the latest ones are silent. (No I am not going to explain it.)

Possibly, but the issue is the French have a contract and its 5yrs roughly into that. If Australia are just walking away because they now prefer to have Nuclear then Aus are in for a bog payout.
I'm sure the details will start flowing in the coming days. But it looks a very strange move by Aus.

[GerryT]

Show us where the Chinese listen to a bunch of rank amateurs playing at politics?

That makes no sense what so ever

[Sheepy]

That very much remains to be seen, "stalked" is some way of describing it, and "demands", two words not seldom used in contracts. In a contract you typically have a set scope, delivery schedule, payment terms, dispute resolution mechanism and a means for dealing with variations and a change control mechanism. I don't know the details of this contract but if Australia cancelled the contract they would need to have demonstrated that they exhausted all means within the contract. From the French reaction that doesn't seem to be the case, but again, time will tell. But Australia could be in for some legal action depending on the detail.

Do you know the detail ?

Show us where the Chinese listen to a bunch of rank amateurs playing at politics?

[papasmurf]

Diesel-electric has some advantage over nuclear, mainly the can switch off and go silent. Nuclear can't as the cooling pumps have to run all the time so their detectable.

That depends on the design of the pumps, the latest ones are silent. (No I am not going to explain it.)

[GerryT]

If you were familiar with the issue, you would know that the diesel electric boat contract has been stalked for some time over French irritation at Australian demands.
Had they been a little less Gallic and a little more keen to get the contract done, they might be at a point where cancellation was beyond feasibility.
They chose instead to stamp their feet and look as thow they had the upper hand.
Looks like they didnt

That very much remains to be seen, "stalked" is some way of describing it, and "demands", two words not seldom used in contracts. In a contract you typically have a set scope, delivery schedule, payment terms, dispute resolution mechanism and a means for dealing with variations and a change control mechanism. I don't know the details of this contract but if Australia cancelled the contract they would need to have demonstrated that they exhausted all means within the contract. From the French reaction that doesn't seem to be the case, but again, time will tell. But Australia could be in for some legal action depending on the detail.

Do you know the detail ?

[johnofgwent]

Im not that familair with the issue, but is there not two things happening. One is the pact between us/uk/aus, which is fair enough, fire away lads.
The second Aus having an order placed for 90b is now cancelling that and placing an order with the US. Is this not what France is upset about ?  Uk tabloids linking these two stories and coming up with 1+1=3 is nothing new. How do uk people keep lapping it up.

If you were familiar with the issue, you would know that the diesel electric boat contract has been stalked for some time over French irritation at Australian demands.


Had they been a little less Gallic and a little more keen to get the contract done, they might be at a point where cancellation was beyond feasibility.


They chose instead to stamp their feet and look as thow they had the upper hand.


Looks like they didnt

[GerryT]

...and in the meantime France is spitting feathers because they are outclassed in submarines and the Dutch are acting as go between trying to get us onside for security - I read something about the EU bosses realising that they need a close relationship with us. That doesn't seem to rhyme with cliffs or 1000 cuts.

i pulled this in here to try keep the sub discussion in one area.
Outclassed ?
Diesel-electric has some advantage over nuclear, mainly the can switch off and go silent. Nuclear cant as the cooling pums have to run all the time so their detectable. Nuclear can run for longer, but the diesel can do the same as they have the same food carrying capacity but they would need refueling.
Finally the french subs are a diesel electric design but based on a french nuclear sub, the Aus could have ordered that from day 1 but they didnt. Def not outclassed.

[T00ts]

Im not that familair with the issue, but is there not two things happening. One is the pact between us/uk/aus, which is fair enough, fire away lads.
The second Aus having an order placed for 90b is now cancelling that and placing an order with the US. Is this not what France is upset about ?  Uk tabloids linking these two stories and coming up with 1+1=3 is nothing new. How do uk people keep lapping it up.

It is your friend Macron who thus far has recalled the French Ambassadors from both USA and Australia. Surely his argument is only with Australia. I think 2+2=a very definite 4. I have no doubt that he is concocting something very special as our punishment.