Trouble in Whitehall last night

[Thomas]

It is pointless going round and round in circles, I want Scotland to go its own way for my own reasons, you want independence for your own reasons the sooner Westminster and the SNP sort it out the better as far as I am concerned I can't wait for it happen

likewise.



keep your politicians nose out of our affairs and we will both get on like a house on fire , until then ,its showtime.

[Churchill]

It is pointless going round and round in circles, I want Scotland to go its own way for my own reasons, you want independence for your own reasons the sooner Westminster and the SNP sort it out the better as far as I am concerned I can't wait for it happen

[Thomas]

Until you get your independence you don't have much choice ,

of course we do.



Do you think the snp and scottish government are sitting around waiting for boris to tell us what to do?



I suspect they will be negotiating behind the scenes , while boris tries to put on a tough front through the lens of the uk media in shouting no no no.



Remember thatcher told you the same about ireland  , when all the while she was negotiating behind the scenes with republicans?



Remember tony blair doing dirty little deals with republicans as well?



All intransigence and refusing to compromise will do is cause unrest big time , potentially withdrawing all scottish politicians from your parliament , and refuse to accept london governance?



Court action , forging ahead with an independence referendum , starting constitutional proceeding s to withdraw from the treaty of union?



All the while london being out of touch and refusing to accept democracy will simply harden scottish public opinion , which is what im sure the snp are praying for.



I can tell you now at this very moment intime , if you hink the scottish government are sitting around cluelessly waiting for london to tell them what to do when your tory government lost 7 of their 13 seats and some of their vote share you are deluded churchill.



is this a continuation of what you believe english democracy is all about , where the losers get to call the shots?



this is what we have heard for the last 4 years from english remainers , now english brexiters like yourself are telling us in scotland the same thing , despite your countries parties and polices being roundly rejected , you are forcing it on us anyway?



What an absolute disgrace .

[Churchill]

Until you get your independence you don't have much choice , if it was down to me it would happen tomorrow.





As for my wife no where she comes from is not under English or Scottish rule, they wouldn't dare big strong lass when she arrived here her first job was kicking starting Jumbo Jets.

[Thomas]

The Industrial Revolution caused a boom in weaving, I stated that we produced 60% of the worlds cloth which we did at one time , not GDP

i know what you said , im saying its irrelevant to what i said. Im pointing out india was a rich country long before westminster took control , and the point was it didnt stay rich , it was emptied of its wealth.By london.



The uk manufactured many things at one time , not because you were great traders , but because through the empire you controlled much of the world trade.



Manufacturing 60% of the worlds cloth and forcing the colonies to buy your goods at over inflated prices isnt a mark of achievement mate.



anyway i digress.

My wife is not English not born here either an economic migrant over 45 years ago, little or no work in her own country she does not hold a British Passport she prefers to keep her own countries passport which I think she is right to do, she loves England because of the lifestyle it has given her.

good for her , and may you both continue to have a long and happy marriage. You dont say where she comes from , but i wonder if her country is under london rule too like mine? Or did they want out along with everyone else from the wonder of having their pockets picked by westminster? ::

I had to endure Blair and Gormless Gordon as PM both as you know Scots both useless did not like either of them

if you are born in a stable mate  , it doesnt make you a horse.



let me correct you here , tony blair and gordon brown might have been born in scotland , but by their own admission they were british in mind body spirit and nationality.



i take no more responsibility for them than you do for english born john stephenson , born in leytonstone london , later known as sean mac stiofain , IRA chief of staff.

you will have to endure Boris until he steps down loses the next GE or you do get your independence which ever happens first.

We dont have to endure anything mate let alone boris johnson and the english nationalism that is driving brexit.



Whatever you wish to believe , scotland and england are in a union by mutual consent , and when one or both nations no longer consent to being in a union , then party over.



There is even this big international treaty recognised around the world called the treaty of union which backs up what i am saying , where the kingdom of scotland and the kingdom of england united by mutual consent to give the united kingdom.



When that mutual consent is no longer apparent as it is now , we have a constitutional crises which will eventually result in both kingdoms reverting back to their original independent states.



Everytime an englishman tells me "you just have to put up with what we want" , another nail is driven into this so called "union" of countries.



If the european union told you the same thing , or 80 million germans tried to boss you around , would you put up with it? course you wouldnt.



So why you think us scottish "just have to put up with" some english politicians who heads a party that was humped in scotland is beyond me.



Democracy is a two way street so i say practice what you preach in england.

[Churchill]

Not gonnae argue mate   you can check yourself long before anyone in england had heard of india , the mughal empire was the centre of the world textile trade at that time , and responsible for a quarter of the worlds GDP



The textile industry in england has never ever at any time in history been responsible for a quarter of the worlds GDP.



The point im making of course is this narrative by some people in your nation that the empire civilised and subsidised backward savages in third world countries is nothing more than empty rhetoric.



im not knocking the ordinary english people , you didnt benefit from the theft of land mineral wealth and money from india or anywhere else , the elite in london did , which is why they wanted to keep and maintain the empire both in these islands and worldwide , and why the majority of 62 countries  hated london rule so much they were prepared to die to get out of it.







My wife is english churchill , and i dont in any way make a serious offensive remark in any way about the ordinary english folk. If i did , my life would be hell. I spend enough time getting called a scottish bastard each day as it is. ::  :roll:



,



In a second referendum if it happens , we need a majority for it to go our way? no sh*t sherlock ::





Im laughing at the minute at the tories  they really are a funny bunch.



Since friday morning i have been hearing them and their media chums tell us boris johnsons landslide victory gives him a mandate to brexit , simply because he won 43% of the vote mainly in your country , yet the snp win 45 % of the vote in scotland and we are told its not enough we didnt get 50 % plus.



Yet in 2015 , we won 50 % of the vote and were told that wasnt enough either , same as it would be if we won 55% of the vote :roll:



Unionists love moving goalposts each time a red line is breached.



The tories stood on a brexit ticket in scotland , at the same time putting flyers through our letterboxes telling us to vote tory ansd say no to any more divisive referendums , and the scottish rejected their party yet again , their vote share falling from 2017 and the snp taking 7 of their thirteen seats.



you have to laugh at the audacity of them and their cheek , party that has never won an election in history in scotland telling us what we can and cant do.

The Industrial Revolution caused a boom in weaving, I stated that we produced 60% of the worlds cloth which we did at one time , not GDP



I was born in the Pennines my parents and grandparents all worked in the Cotton Mills even the small town I grew up had roughly 14 mills producing yards of cloth every day, the reason weaving was so prevalent in the Pennines was down to the climate damp, which means the warp and weft are less likely to break .



The other reason being water rivers and streams powered the water wheels that drove the mechanised looms in some Mills hundreds of them in one shed all clacking away, then came steam power more Mills more power more looms, then electric motors on each loom working faster and faster in some 24 hours a day 5 days a week.



To feed the mills canals were dug to bring in raw cotton and railway lines raw cotton in cloth out back to the docks to be sent across the UK and around the world.



My wife is not English not born here either an economic migrant over 45 years ago, little or no work in her own country she does not hold a British Passport she prefers to keep her own countries passport which I think she is right to do, she loves England because of the lifestyle it has given her.



I had to endure Blair and Gormless Gordon as PM both as you know Scots both useless did not like either of them , you will have to endure Boris until he steps down loses the next GE  or you do get your independence which ever happens first.

[Baron von Lotsov]

I watched a Channel 4 Scareumentry last night on the UKIP, suggesting they had entertained the far right and nationalism. They said the far right was a deadly mix of a feeling of national superiority and the politics of populism combined. But, not once in their dribble talk did they mention the SNP.



Lets see why the SNP are different:

At the 2017 SNP Conference, on 10 October, Nicola Sturgeon made several commitments,[57][58] including:



    Completion of the largest floating wind-power facility in the world, at Peterhead.

    Council Tax exemption for those leaving care homes.

    Denuclearisation efforts, particularly the ban on "weapons of mass destruction".

    Free sanitary products for all students.

    Creating a not-for-profit oil company for Scotland.

    Covering the application fee for EU nationals employed in the Scottish public sector.

    Opposition to "austerity" measures imposed from abroad.

    Opposition to any attempt at privatisation of the NHS.

-Wiki



Why they would want the largest wind power in the world beats me, except perhaps it compliments the largest ego in the world.



Buy votes from people in care homes.



Ban green forms of energy whilst going green - .



Buy the dirty student votes.



Pay for all of this from a not for profit company providing fossil fuels.



Sell public sector jobs to foreigners.



Oppose economy.



Oppose a fictitious privatisation of the NHS.



I mean the Scottish will manage OK because they are smart. They nearly all voted for her.

[Thomas]

When it comes to textiles the spinning jenny and powered weaving looms were invented here our textile industry at its height produced 60% of the worlds cotton goods, Yorkshire mainly woollen goods and carpets



An industry that had grown out of hand weavers in small cottages producing a few yards a day or week , to an industry that employed thousands of people producing many thousands of yards of cloth every day, very little left of it survives today, most is imported today.  



But nothing lasts for ever or stays the same life goes on its what each of us makes of it

Not gonnae argue mate   you can check yourself long before anyone in england had heard of india , the mughal empire was the centre of the world textile trade at that time , and responsible for a quarter of the worlds GDP



The textile industry in england has never ever at any time in history been responsible for a quarter of the worlds GDP.



The point im making of course is this narrative by some people in your nation that the empire civilised and subsidised backward savages in third world countries is nothing more than empty rhetoric.



im not knocking the ordinary english people , you didnt benefit from the theft of land mineral wealth and money from india or anywhere else , the elite in london did , which is why they wanted to keep and maintain the empire both in these islands and worldwide , and why the majority of 62 countries  hated london rule so much they were prepared to die to get out of it.

least perhaps it may mean less offensive remarks against Sassenachs which would be nice.

My wife is english churchill , and i dont in any way make a serious offensive remark in any way about the ordinary english folk. If i did , my life would be hell. I spend enough time getting called a scottish bastard each day as it is. ::  :roll:

Second mistake I have made today not double checking, eventually if the matter is settling in Court and a second referendum takes the outcome will depend if a majority do vote in favour of it

,



In a second referendum if it happens , we need a majority for it to go our way? no shit sherlock ::





Im laughing at the minute at the tories  they really are a funny bunch.



Since friday morning i have been hearing them and their media chums tell us boris johnsons landslide victory gives him a mandate to brexit , simply because he won 43% of the vote mainly in your country , yet the snp win 45 % of the vote in scotland and we are told its not enough we didnt get 50 % plus.



Yet in 2015 , we won 50 % of the vote and were told that wasnt enough either , same as it would be if we won 55% of the vote :roll:



Unionists love moving goalposts each time a red line is breached.



The tories stood on a brexit ticket in scotland , at the same time putting flyers through our letterboxes telling us to vote tory ansd say no to any more divisive referendums , and the scottish rejected their party yet again , their vote share falling from 2017 and the snp taking 7 of their thirteen seats.



you have to laugh at the audacity of them and their cheek , party that has never won an election in history in scotland telling us what we can and cant do.

[Churchill]

i think you have that the wrong way around churchill. The legal battle wont be after it will be before any referendum takes place if at all to determine wether scotland can have a vote on indy.



The argument will be english constitutional law where your parliament is sovereign against scottish constitutional law where the people are sovereign , and to determine wether the scottish people or the uk parliament have the right to allow a scottish indy ref.



As for the empire it was financed from the colonies , london merely received the colonies money , it was controlled from london is what i said.



India in the days of the mughal empire was responsible for 25% of the worlds GDP under the textile trade with a highly literate population and after two centuries of london "rule" , it had been impoverished and reduced down to a third world country with a highly illiterate population.



wonder where all their money went?



Its not hard to see why they wanted independence instead of the wonder of london rule eh?



However are they managing today without londons money  ::  supporting them and subsidising them?

Second mistake I have made today not double checking, eventually if the matter is settling in Court and a second referendum takes the outcome will depend if a majority do vote in favour of it, if it does go the way you want it at least perhaps it may mean less offensive remarks against Sassenachs which would be nice.



When it comes to textiles the spinning jenny and powered weaving looms were invented here our textile industry at its height produced 60% of the worlds cotton goods, Yorkshire mainly woollen goods and carpets



An industry that had grown out of hand weavers in small cottages producing a few yards a day or week , to an industry that employed thousands of people producing many thousands of yards of cloth every day, very little left of it survives today, most is imported today.  



But nothing lasts for ever or stays the same life goes on its what each of us makes of it

[Thomas]

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[Thomas]

have to say cromwell , i agree with this tory and wish they would practice what this tory preaches...





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scotland has the right to withdraw from the treaty of union.as has england.

[Thomas]

Sorry thought I made it clear here (I am agreeing with you btw)



 

So basically I'm saying we want our Brexit ref vote respecting and voted tory accordingly even in places never tory for generations if ever,the SNP  have won nearly all the seats in Scotland and Scotland voted remain so a second indy ref is in order,the Spain Catalonia comment I thought spoke for itself,we can't say you can't have another vote to leave the union and we wouldnt be using the police to batter people and sieze ballot boxes and only a fool would ignore the call for a second indyref as denial would make a UK break up certain and is in any event a denial of democracy.

ok get you know and appreciate the sentiment .



unfortunately thats not what the conservative government in london are saying.



As i said in a post to major sinic earlier , we all want things to go smoothly and part in amicable terms , but unfortunately as history shows time and again , london has to be dragged kicking and screaming into accepting democracy as you have saw yourselves over brexit.



Nearly four years on and you still havent had your referendum result implemented by the mother of all parliaments  :roll:  , and over in ireland sinn fein stood in the uk general election of 1918 on an indy ticket won 75 % of seats , and westminster refused to accept democracy which led to war and bloodshed and independence in the end.



im hoping common sense  prevails, but i suspect it wil be more of burying heads in the sand and refusing to accept democracy

[cromwell]

Sorry cromwell i dont understand your post or the point you are making  are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?



Im not denying anyone anyhting , yet again scotland and northern ireland has rejected brexit in a free and fair vote. Both nations voted for parties that want to stop either country brexiting .



The conservative stood on a brexit ticket and england overwhelmingly endorsed that , while here in scotland they lost part of their 2017 vote share and the snp took 7 of their 13 seats. Scotland again rejected brexit.



Sorry cromwell what point are you trying to make?



The fact of the matter is yet again , the uk is split constitutionally over brexit as it has been with two nations wanting brexit and two not , and the uk government is refusing to accept the democratic vote in scotland and northern ireland .



We arent at the catalonia stage yet , but i have no doubt every dirty trick under the sky is going to be used against scotland to stop us leaving your union.



and the more hysterical the tories get , the more damage they will do to the union.



How can a minor party that cant win a single election at any level in scotland possibly tell us what we can and cant do? thats is where we are at present under yookay "democracy"

Sorry thought I made it clear here (I am agreeing with you btw)

Well as you know Thomas I still believe in the Union,however you can't say I want my vote respected (as per Brexit referendum) and deny others the same,the issue has changed since the last indyref and this election so far as the SNP victory and us leaving changes it all so a second go is not out of order.

So basically I'm saying we want our Brexit ref vote respecting and voted tory accordingly even in places never tory for generations if ever,the SNP  have won nearly all the seats in Scotland and Scotland voted remain so a second indy ref is in order,the Spain Catalonia comment I thought spoke for itself,we can't say you can't have another vote to leave the union and we wouldnt be using the police to batter people and sieze ballot boxes and only a fool would ignore the call for a second indyref as denial would make a UK break up certain and is in any event a denial of democracy.

[Thomas]

I agree it was financed in London, yes you may well be in for a legal battle if enough people do vote for independence as and when a second referendum takes place

i think you have that the wrong way around churchill. The legal battle wont be after it will be before any referendum takes place if at all to determine wether scotland can have a vote on indy.



The argument will be english constitutional law where your parliament is sovereign against scottish constitutional law where the people are sovereign , and to determine wether the scottish people or the uk parliament have the right to allow a scottish indy ref.



As for the empire it was financed from the colonies , london merely received the colonies money , it was controlled from london is what i said.



India in the days of the mughal empire was responsible for 25% of the worlds GDP under the textile trade with a highly literate population and after two centuries of london "rule" , it had been impoverished and reduced down to a third world country with a highly illiterate population.



wonder where all their money went?



Its not hard to see why they wanted independence instead of the wonder of london rule eh?



However are they managing today without londons money  ::  supporting them and subsidising them?

[Thomas]

Well as you know Thomas I still believe in the Union,however you can't say I want my vote respected (as per Brexit referendum) and deny others the same,the issue has changed since the last indyref and this election so far as the SNP victory and us leaving changes it all so a second go is not out of order.



If this general election has any lesson IMO its not that the tories won it overwhelmingly but offered to respect that vote and those who voted leave (and some remain) saw they were ignored,ridiculed and taken as fools and democracy was being put aside so that seats never labour for generations or in cases never at all voted tory,and the party that promised to revoke article 50 as its platform was given the bums rush.



The lesson then is ignore a vote at your peril,the UK is not Spain and Scotland not Catalonia.

Sorry cromwell i dont understand your post or the point you are making  are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?



Im not denying anyone anyhting , yet again scotland and northern ireland has rejected brexit in a free and fair vote. Both nations voted for parties that want to stop either country brexiting .



The conservative stood on a brexit ticket and england overwhelmingly endorsed that , while here in scotland they lost part of their 2017 vote share and the snp took 7 of their 13 seats. Scotland again rejected brexit.



Sorry cromwell what point are you trying to make?



The fact of the matter is yet again , the uk is split constitutionally over brexit as it has been with two nations wanting brexit and two not , and the uk government is refusing to accept the democratic vote in scotland and northern ireland .



We arent at the catalonia stage yet , but i have no doubt every dirty trick under the sky is going to be used against scotland to stop us leaving your union.



and the more hysterical the tories get , the more damage they will do to the union. I well remember scotland in the eighties under thatcher , she had the independence support through the roof although it was expressed through the labour party at the time and their empty promises of home rule.



Im hoping bojo emulates his hero. :thup:



How can a minor party that cant win a single election at any level in scotland possibly tell us what we can and cant do? thats is where we are at present under yookay "democracy"