Is anyone surprised? Ukraine invaded

[B0ycey]

Boycey, your wrong  I didn't support the reasons used to attack Iraq. Or the methods used. I did however support the Idea that Sadam , had committed multiple breaches of human rights including provable genocide of his own people, and would have supported a limited incursion to get him out of there.
As for Blair, it was the biggest mistake he could have made. I give him credit for some things not that.
Putin,can't avoid civilians because of the nature of his attack, no excuse because he shouldn't be there doing what he does.
He should do everything for his country. Just not invade his neighbours , with an overwhelming military force , as last resort to the fact that his way of control is rejected. I said way back in this  I expect him to influence disrupt His neighbours not invade them. We can agree that Iraq, In it's entirety , was a mistake , the US mainly , but 69 other countries had a finger in that pie.  Putin,and Belarus,are on their own even the Chinese ,will not give this the green light in public.  I get the feeling if he doesn't resort to all out destruction, and slaughter, he will get away with this escapade.
I will be surprised if he goes further and try's it on with any of the northern states if he doesn't start another multinational all out blood letting compared with those of the not so distant past.

Well whatever. I think Russia will leave once they have accomplished their mission given talks with Ukraine actually went better than I was expecting. That is denazification and human right abuses. If they wanted complete control of Ukraine and all out war, it would make no sense to negotiate at all. Russia have a convy surrounding Kiev, they will take the capital if Zelensky doesn't compromise. But whatever the genocide claims are, I can't see why Zelensky can't compromise here given I am guessing he isn't against the Russian language be spoken in Ukraine.

[cromwell]

Or is it mainly because now they can call themselves refugees of war, and come here, when in fact they are just opportunists.

Give me strength,oh great some T@@@ invades my country starts destroying it what an opportunity to go to the UK.

Scott give your head a wobble,

[Scott777]

There was no genocide. That was a made up excuse. A false flag excuse similar in style to the sort of guff Hitler used to come out with.

I've recently heard a few false flags involving Ukrainian killing other Ukrainians, and claiming it was the Russians.

[B0ycey]

There was no genocide. That was a made up excuse. A false flag excuse similar in style to the sort of guff Hitler used to come out with.

Well it wasn't genocide in the conventional sense. It was something to do with language I think. I don't know the ins and outs, but my guess is we will understand more of the Russian perspective when they release the evidence they claim they have. Not that I think it wasn't a false flag narrative it should be said given it was a play out of the Bush/Blair handbook. Only that it is the reason they invaded. Invasions over human rights violations always seem to be the excuse when the reason I suspect was to prevent NATO expansion by putting a dummy government in post. Which is why I keep saying if we want peace in Europe we need to hope Zelensky will drop NATO membership for a Finnish pact.

[Scott777]

A good many  civilian Ukrainians contemplate leaving the frigging country ,because of his reckless behaviour.

Or is it mainly because now they can call themselves refugees of war, and come here, when in fact they are just opportunists.

[Good old]

Bring up Iraq is important because it is the only way you can bring context into your argument. You have bought the "Putin is bad" narrative because it is against your own self interest. My bet, you were one of those singing Blair praises for taking us into a war on a doggy dossier.

As for targeting civilians, Russia isn't doing that. Sure, a miss placed missile might be good for the news, but they aren't targeting people. Russians and Ukrainians are historically the same people and see themselves close very much like the British and Irish or French and Belgium.

One thing about Russia is everything they do is for mother Russia. The same can be said for America I guess. So like America wanted control of oil, they over played the WMDs claim, Russia wanted to expand their Soviet influence so over played the Genocide card. On both occasions both nations perhaps bit off more than they can chew

Boycey, your wrong  I didn't support the reasons used to attack Iraq. Or the methods used. I did however support the Idea that Sadam , had committed multiple breaches of human rights including provable genocide of his own people, and would have supported a limited incursion to get him out of there.
As for Blair, it was the biggest mistake he could have made. I give him credit for some things not that. 
Putin,can't avoid civilians because of the nature of his attack, no excuse because he shouldn't be there doing what he does. 
He should do everything for his country. Just not invade his neighbours , with an overwhelming military force , as last resort to the fact that his way of control is rejected. I said way back in this  I expect him to influence disrupt His neighbours not invade them. We can agree that Iraq, In it's entirety , was a mistake , the US mainly , but 69 other countries had a finger in that pie.  Putin,and Belarus,are on their own even the Chinese ,will not give this the green light in public.  I get the feeling if he doesn't resort to all out destruction, and slaughter, he will get away with this escapade. 
I will be surprised if he goes further and try's it on with any of the northern states if he doesn't start another multinational all out blood letting compared with those of the not so distant past. 

[Scott777]

A pity a realistic outcome can not now be reached until Europes latest candidate for mega maniac of the century has done his dirty work. Putin, certainly thrives on the drama of it all. Like most criminals. Let's hope he starts paying attention to the lessons of the past. Because they rarely end well.

Putin is no more a criminal maniac than Macron or Trudeau or Von der Lying, or Boris or Biden.

[B0ycey]

Really. That must be why the EU has asked the UK to head a security team.

The UK have good surveillance. Do not confuse our military strength with competent leaders.

[srb7677]

Russia want to prevent genocide

There was no genocide. That was a made up excuse. A false flag excuse similar in style to the sort of guff Hitler used to come out with.

[Scott777]

I think the Ukraine would be happy to be neutral if Vlad buggered off.

I think Vlad would bugger off if Ukraine remained neutral.  Looking at it from his perspective, he was concerned about NATO, and the industrial military complex arming Ukraine.  It was not remaining neutral.

[srb7677]

I didn't say Ukraine was Russian Good Old. But historically it was.

After Russia conquered it, like so many other regions. The Kievan Rus state founded by vikings lording it over the local Slavs, was expunged from the map many centuries earlier, subsequently coming under the sway at various times of the Mongols, the Cossacks, the Turks, and the Poles, before the Russians grabbed it. The Poles again occuppied Kyiv for a time as recently as 1919, and twice in the 20th century it fell prey to German invasion and occupation. Yet the Ukrainians have their own language, related to but seperate from Russian which itself is a sign of a seperate identity. Not that that matters. Ukraine was historically Russian only in the sense that Russia was one of it's conquerors. It could with equal validity be said to be historically Polish or historically Turkish.

[Barry]

Barry, the EU was uniting over Brexit. It is totally in unison now. And the UK is now even further out the diplomatic standing than it was before. Does anyone listen to the UK these days? Macron is doing the hard yards right now not the clown Johnson. And soon those Tories who thirst for power of whatver kind, when they see the EU getting bigger and us being pushed further out, the end result will be rejoining.

Really. That must be why the EU has asked the UK to head a security team.

[B0ycey]

OK I'm listening. So now you listen. Keep bringing Iraq, up is not grounds to excuse anything. And what bollox to think telling people to leave their own homes because I am going obliterate it for reasons only known to me. Is some sort of  major coup . A good many  civilian Ukrainians contemplate leaving the frigging country ,because of his reckless behaviour. Putin,  is using Macron, not listening to him.
I need to stop F—k all , Putin is the one that needs to stop or needs stopping.

Bring up Iraq is important because it is the only way you can bring context into your argument. You have bought the "Putin is bad" narrative because it is against your own self interest. My bet, you were one of those singing Blair praises for taking us into a war on a doggy dossier.

As for targeting civilians, Russia isn't doing that. Sure, a miss placed missile might be good for the news, but they aren't targeting people. Russians and Ukrainians are historically the same people and see themselves close very much like the British and Irish or French and Belgium.

One thing about Russia is everything they do is for mother Russia. The same can be said for America I guess. So like America wanted control of oil, they over played the WMDs claim, Russia wanted to expand their Soviet influence so over played the Genocide card. On both occasions both nations perhaps bit off more than they can chew

[B0ycey]

Historically Ukraine is  Austro Hungarian,Polish,Historically France is ours,but we belong to Rome historically cobblers I'm afraid.

It should be said that Ukraine was Prussian and historically the UK (so more specifically England) is French given Brittany is associated with William the Conquer. But in any case, I never said that Ukraine should be Russian. But I do think a lot of this mess could be sorted out if the country split into two because the Donbass does seem more Russian and Crimea is never going to return to Ukraine. And I guess these kind of issues won't be going away. But what might stop the war at least is Russia having a successful mission on preventing genocide and whatever it was they have evidence for (I guess it is the language thing) they will expect concessions here before any troops return home. 

[Good old]

Listen Good Old, you need to stop it. Missiles go off target. Do you think when we invaded Iraq they didn't kill civilians or apartment blocks? Russia make it clear today where they are attacking and asked people to stay away. That is a f**king win for Macron whether you accept that or not.

OK I'm listening. So now you listen. Keep bringing Iraq, up is not grounds to excuse anything. And what bollox to think telling people to leave their own homes because I am going obliterate it for reasons only known to me. Is some sort of  major coup . A good many  civilian Ukrainians contemplate leaving the frigging country ,because of his reckless behaviour. Putin,  is using Macron, not listening to him.
I need to stop F—k all , Putin is the one that needs to stop or needs stopping.