So much for Brexit

[Hyperduck Quack Quack]

If not much changes, some people will be asking "what was the point of leaving the EU?" while others will be asking "what was the point of being in the EU in the first place?"



The answer to the first question would be: "so that we can give up the right to live, work and do business anywhere within the EU."

The answer to the second question would be: "it gives us the right to live, work and do business anywhere within the EU."



Ending free movement is really an own-goal.  It removes the automatic right of people from 26 of the 28 current EU countries to live, work and do business in the UK.  Only people from the Republic of Ireland will retain that right.  But people from those 26 countries will still have freedom of movement between the 27 remaining counties of the EU, whereas UK citizens will only have freedom of movement to one EU country, Ireland.



If Brexit has done one thing, it has disproved the idea that the EU was some sort of imperialist bureaucracy from which we needed to break free.  The EU has not stood in our way during Article 50.  All the problems have been home-grown, stemming from the divisiveness of a major issue where the population is split roughly 50:50.

[cromwell]

You said what you didn't want:

...most I guess would prefer a deal that isn't Brino,...

And you said you'd be happy with WTO:

...failing that we'll go without one

No deal is WTO.



The Eu won't stray too far from this.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/michel-barnier-killer-graphic-brexit-theresa-mays-red-lines-on-bespoke-model_uk_5a39497ce4b0fc99878f2058">

edit: image not linking but it's here https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/michel-barnier-killer-graphic-brexit-theresa-mays-red-lines-on-bespoke-model_uk_5a39497ce4b0fc99878f2058">https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 99878f2058">https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/michel-barnier-killer-graphic-brexit-theresa-mays-red-lines-on-bespoke-model_uk_5a39497ce4b0fc99878f2058



It's a pretty solid template of where the future EU/UK relationship will most likely end up. The only real decision that needs to be made is where does the UK feel it can comfortably sit. After 3 yrs we are still in the position of the UK holding the ball with a decision to make.

If you think the EU is playing hard, your in for a shock when dealing with other large countries.

Still at it Gerry,how are your comprehension skills? I said if we get no deal we'l go without one,where in any of that other than your imagination is happy?

[GerryT]

OK Gerry still banging on that old drum making things up I didn't say,please point out where I said in all that " I'm happy to trade on wto rules"

And I haven't said what is the likely outcome because I don't know,neither do you Conor or most people,I could guess but I'd rather wait and see how it progresses first,OK?

You said what you didn't want:

...most I guess would prefer a deal that isn't Brino,...

And you said you'd be happy with WTO:

...failing that we'll go without one

No deal is WTO.



The Eu won't stray too far from this.

https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5a394c31160000783ecf2154.jpeg?ops=scalefit_630_noupscale">



It's a pretty solid template of where the future EU/UK relationship will most likely end up. The only real decision that needs to be made is where does the UK feel it can comfortably sit. After 3 yrs we are still in the position of the UK holding the ball with a decision to make.

If you think the EU is playing hard, your in for a shock when dealing with other large countries.

[cromwell]

Well, no it doesn't answer the question because you haven't said what you think is the likely outcome. Other than saying what you don't want and your happy to trade under WTO.

OK Gerry still banging on that old drum making things up I didn't say,please point out where I said in all that " I'm happy to trade on wto rules"

And I haven't said what is the likely outcome because I don't know,neither do you Conor or most people,I could guess but I'd rather wait and see how it progresses first,OK?

[GerryT]

We have.



Repeatedly.



According to you, the UK will starve to death because the Irish government will close down the hamburger mines that supply British supermarkets. We have said that we don't know or much care.



We can't keep telling you Gerry. Sooner or later you will have to start paying attention to other folk

But you haven't, nobody has. Remember the question---what do you think the final deal will look like. We know you don't know, it's called speculation. This is a brexit discussion thread, the question has some relevance.

[GerryT]

That's easy. It will be exactly what our PM, with his very hefty majority, decides together with his Cabinet Ministers. He has already started to make it clear to your EU friends that we won't be messed around by making the 'brow-beating' last for years thus keeping us at the beck and call of Brussels ad infinitem. When the time comes we will walk away if common ground has not been reached. He knows full well that he can say 'bye-bye' to No 10 if there is any attempt to tie us in knots. The last election showed only too well how fed up we are with all of it. The EU have muddled along for long enough. Time to cut it.

What your PM & team decides will be your opening position, not the final deal struck. The question is what do you think the final deal would look like.

I think if you look back over the past 3 yrs you'll see the EU has been prepared and open for discussion while the EU has been internally squabbling and asking for extension after extension. If muddling is how you would describe events its a label you should pin on the UK and not the EU.

[GerryT]

Well you Gerry seem as blind to the answer as Conor,you quite rightly state no one knows where it will end up,most I guess would prefer a deal that isn't Brino,failing that we'll go without one,now does that answer you both?

Well, no it doesn't answer the question because you haven't said what you think is the likely outcome. Other than saying what you don't want and your happy to trade under WTO.

[Borchester]

No we will weigh up what Boris comes back with either triumphantly or not  and make our feelings known .





So you are presuming,I told you why I voted  leave so presume no more





Brino we walk away.







I've already told you,we elected a govt to negotiate on our behalf and will judge on that conclusion,we have had three years to think on this,your tone on this follows much of what preceded since that vote from many quarters......If we don't think about these things? really you have my answer and I presume your comments about our thought processes follow the same route that we don't think really but are stupid brexiteers.

 :hattip  :hattip  :hattip

[T00ts]

Well as I told you negotiations haven't really started have they,posturing yes negotiations no.

You thought the replies irrelevant a number of posters differed.







Yes so you said we would be in the same position as Sudan,'twas you mentioned Sudan,no else.







You claim you were told you knew the future yet here you say "you're leaping on it so you can shout project fear" No I'm not never mentioned project fear in relation to this but there you are predicting what I'll say in the future or is it an opinion.....please be clear  :?:







No we will weigh up what Boris comes back with either triumphantly or not  and make our feelings known .





So you are presuming,I told you why I voted  leave so presume no more





Brino we walk away.







I've already told you,we elected a govt to negotiate on our behalf and will judge on that conclusion,we have had three years to think on this,your tone on this follows much of what preceded since that vote from many quarters......If we don't think about these things? really you have my answer and I presume your comments about our thought processes follow the same route that we don't think really but are stupid brexiteers.

 :hattip  :hattip  :hattip 1

[cromwell]

Well no, I offered opinions on how I see things panning out, and invited others to discuss it. Instead, I have been subjected to a number of replies which were completely irrelevant and now I'm getting told that I claim to know the future for whatever reason.

Well as I told you negotiations haven't really started have they,posturing yes negotiations no.

You thought the replies irrelevant a number of posters differed.

I didn't say we were in the same position as Sudan, I offered an opinion that based on what the government claims it wants to achieve within a tight timeline, the deal that can be achieved would not appear to be far off what the EU unilaterally provides to Least Developed Countries.  

Yes so you said we would be in the same position as Sudan,'twas you mentioned Sudan,no else.

This doesn't mean the UK ends up like Sudan (you know well that this isn't what I mean but you're leaping on it so you can shout 'project fear'), it simply means that the UK would be negotiating a deal aiming for the same level of access which the EU offers unilaterally to poorly developed countries like Sudan.

You claim you were told you knew the future yet here you say "you're leaping on it so you can shout project fear" No I'm not never mentioned project fear in relation to this but there you are predicting what I'll say in the future or is it an opinion.....please be clear  :?:

So if Boris Johnson was to come triumphantly back to London later this year and tell you all that he has won a great deal, then you would have to weigh up how much of an achievement it really is to negotiate a deal which provides similar access as to what the EU unilaterally provides to poor countries.

No we will weigh up what Boris comes back with either triumphantly or not  and make our feelings known .

You all said on here that you know what you voted for, and now you don't want to discuss the future because apparently offering opinions on the future is tantamount to declaring yourself as Nostradamus. I presume you voted for Brexit on the basis that it was better for the country, and I might even be so bold as to suppose that you thought it would work well for the country going into the future.

So you are presuming,I told you why I voted  leave so presume no more

So what do you envisage for the UK-EU relationship? How do you envisage this new 'free' UK should work and trade with the EU? What elements of a deal would be of such redline abhorrence to you that you would advocate walking away from negotiations?

Brino we walk away.

If you don't think about these things, then how can you form opinions on how the government acts? I'm not asking you to soothsay, I'm inviting your and anyone else's opinions on current events and how that feeds into what may transpire. It's important because, surely, your opinions on how you want the future to unfold feed into your appraisal of what your government is doing currently.  If you care about the future, you weigh up what is being done now and how that aligns to what you want for your country or indeed how it runs against what you want.

I've already told you,we elected a govt to negotiate on our behalf and will judge on that conclusion,we have had three years to think on this,your tone on this follows much of what preceded since that vote from many quarters......If we don't think about these things? really you have my answer and I presume your comments about our thought processes follow the same route that we don't think really but are stupid brexiteers.

[Conchúr]

No what are you on about man,there is no BoJo cult he stood on a ticket of sorting brexit and that is what is expected of him so if he gets it wrong he will pay the price.



You seem to believe you know the shape of the future negotiations but  that we are in the same position as Sudan,we don't really know the position the eu will adopt so no we can't give you the answers you crave yet,other than if it's hardball the negotiations shouldn't last long as you baldy state BoJo's timetable is impossible and this or that will be ignored.



The future? not a clue really as I suspect you don't either for all the theories plans negotiations and economic forecasts neither you nor I have the power of a seer we'll have to see when the bargaining begins and it hasn't really has it?

Well no, I offered opinions on how I see things panning out, and invited others to discuss it. Instead, I have been subjected to a number of replies which were completely irrelevant and now I'm getting told that I claim to know the future for whatever reason.



I didn't say we were in the same position as Sudan, I offered an opinion that based on what the government claims it wants to achieve within a tight timeline, the deal that can be achieved would not appear to be far off what the EU unilaterally provides to Least Developed Countries.  This doesn't mean the UK ends up like Sudan (you know well that this isn't what I mean but you're leaping on it so you can shout 'project fear'), it simply means that the UK would be negotiating a deal aiming for the same level of access which the EU offers unilaterally to poorly developed countries like Sudan. So if Boris Johnson was to come triumphantly back to London later this year and tell you all that he has won a great deal, then you would have to weigh up how much of an achievement it really is to negotiate a deal which provides similar access as to what the EU unilaterally provides to poor countries.



You all said on here that you know what you voted for, and now you don't want to discuss the future because apparently offering opinions on the future is tantamount to declaring yourself as Nostradamus. I presume you voted for Brexit on the basis that it was better for the country, and I might even be so bold as to suppose that you thought it would work well for the country going into the future. So what do you envisage for the UK-EU relationship? How do you envisage this new 'free' UK should work and trade with the EU? What elements of a deal would be of such redline abhorrence to you that you would advocate walking away from negotiations?



If you don't think about these things, then how can you form opinions on how the government acts? I'm not asking you to soothsay, I'm inviting your and anyone else's opinions on current events and how that feeds into what may transpire. It's important because, surely, your opinions on how you want the future to unfold feed into your appraisal of what your government is doing currently.  If you care about the future, you weigh up what is being done now and how that aligns to what you want for your country or indeed how it runs against what you want.

[Barry]

I love the way the EU keep harping on about the term "third country". This is psychobabble to pretend we are a third (world) country, whereas there are no "second countries", they just mean third party country.



It does not stop the UK being number 5 economy in the World. Ahead of France and Italy in the EU.

[cromwell]

What in God's name are you on about man?  I am discussing the UK's future relationship with the EU, which is an important topic for the geopolitical and economic future of your country and the rest of Europe. I'm not talking about the referendum. I'm not talking about the virtues of leaving the EU. I'm not talking about Remain vs. Leave. I'm not talking about the election. Brexit is going to happen and I am now talking about the post Brexit relationship and the future.



Your analogy is lovely but it has precisely zero to do with the discussion being had....or at least the discussion I'm trying to have while all you lot seem utterly determined to have a completely different discussion about the past!  Did this forum suddenly become a part of a Boris Johnson personality cult over Christmas, where all criticism of the intentions and approach of Boris to Brexit are taken as sweeping attacks on Leavers ?



Yes there is a world beyond Brexit, and maybe this isn't simply a political debating site, but we are on the bloody Brexit section where I would have supposed one comes to discuss Brexit. Or have I gotten that wrong?



So let me try one more time — do any of you have any thoughts about the specific issues at play in the upcoming negotiations on the post Brexit deal ..or perhaps lack thereof..or do you just not care about the future anymore because "we won so sod it"?

No what are you on about man,there is no BoJo cult he stood on a ticket of sorting brexit and that is what is expected of him so if he gets it wrong he will pay the price.



You seem to believe you know the shape of the future negotiations but  that we are in the same position as Sudan,we don't really know the position the eu will adopt so no we can't give you the answers you crave yet,other than if it's hardball the negotiations shouldn't last long as you baldy state BoJo's timetable is impossible and this or that will be ignored.



The future? not a clue really as I suspect you don't either for all the theories plans negotiations and economic forecasts neither you nor I have the power of a seer we'll have to see when the bargaining begins and it hasn't really has it?

[Conchúr]

Wait until we see what is on the table not your EU feed for the masses. Then perhaps there will be something to discuss. It feels to me that most of what you and others disgorge as discussion is only more of the same scare talk that has bored us all. I'm out!

Well there are certainly indications at this stage. Von der Leyen stated today that a deal within Johnsons timeline, covering all the scope of things to be dealt with, is "impossible".  She is of course 100% correct because the timeline is ludicrous, so Boris might seek to remove the most complicated element from the discussions (Services) so that he can possibly finalise something with the EU faster.



From what I've seen on this forum today, if Boris comes back with a deal (regardless of whether Services is missing) it won't be hard for him to spin to people that he has won a great victory. He has form in this regard of course, his amended Withdrawal Agreement was hailed as a victory for removing the backstop even though it actually gave the EU more than it previously had to render the backstop unnecessary. If he goes to the EU and wins a deal simply by avoiding the complexity of services — it won't matter to his faithful — Boris will have gotten a deal, any deal.  And then we will get to hear people on this forum say "oh remember Ursula said the deal was impossible within the timeline well Boris showed her didn't he?".



Have a good evening Toots, it is unfortunate that you're heading off just after calling me "clueless" as I had hoped to be educated . . . but perhaps another evening.

[Conchúr]

Conor you aren't listening,people of this country have looked long and hard at the eu for years,they've seen how it's mutated from that which we joined,how people of other countries have voted and their votes ignored or they be made to vote again till they come to the right conclusion.



We have enough politicians of our own and don't really want or see yet another layer added and the gravy train grow,we've been lectured and hectored,most aren't interested in any cult and have seen enough flowery language to last a lifetime and for all your labels most wouldn't ever say oh I'm a brexiteer and all that comes with it is my divine gospel.



If a deal is reached it is,if not we'll go without one,and you make the mistake of pulling another poster as to his presence on a brexit forum,it isn't it's a political forum and despite what you believe there is a world outside the eu and a political one too.



No we looked on year after year treaty after treaty,were promised a vote that never materialised until Cameron the coward decided on one certain of a remain vote.



And still you don't listen and scratch your head in bewilderment decided that we are to become just like Sudan you fail to grasp that we are prepared if we have to to take a hit but were the eu a golf club we decided we didn't like the rules,the committee the greens or the membership fees and thought sod that we'll just go down the pub where everyone else goes.



I doubt you'll understand the analogy and will complain I haven't answered your question because you cannot grasp that someone wishes to leave the club you hold so dear,well we have and the more we're told it all end in tears for us the more we say really? well sod it bye bye.



I suspect I'm wasting my breath  :brd:

What in God's name are you on about man?  I am discussing the UK's future relationship with the EU, which is an important topic for the geopolitical and economic future of your country and the rest of Europe. I'm not talking about the referendum. I'm not talking about the virtues of leaving the EU. I'm not talking about Remain vs. Leave. I'm not talking about the election. Brexit is going to happen and I am now talking about the post Brexit relationship and the future.



Your analogy is lovely but it has precisely zero to do with the discussion being had....or at least the discussion I'm trying to have while all you lot seem utterly determined to have a completely different discussion about the past!  Did this forum suddenly become a part of a Boris Johnson personality cult over Christmas, where all criticism of the intentions and approach of Boris to Brexit are taken as sweeping attacks on Leavers ?



Yes there is a world beyond Brexit, and maybe this isn't simply a political debating site, but we are on the bloody Brexit section where I would have supposed one comes to discuss Brexit. Or have I gotten that wrong?



So let me try one more time — do any of you have any thoughts about the specific issues at play in the upcoming negotiations on the post Brexit deal ..or perhaps lack thereof..or do you just not care about the future anymore because "we won so sod it"?