Capital Punishment

[Wiggles]

Gone over your head



What a surprise  :brd:

Dick head

[PhantomPhlyer]

What the bleeding hell is all that about then ?

Smart Aleck

[cromwell]

What the bleeding hell is all that about then ?

Gone over your head



What a surprise  :brd:

[Wiggles]

The Hangman



PP is researching his ancestry

So far reaching year a.d. 953

Family has some Ladies & also has some Lords

Others of the family were Knighted with a sword



Mainly though it's labourers on farms

And some of course were bearing arms

Some from Shropshire some from Gwent

Some from Hereford and even one from Brent



Some from Somerset and some from France

I'll bet they led King Harold a merry old dance

One by marriage was well known

As Executioner to the Crown



Albert Pierrpoint was his name

And people  went as soon as he came

But I'm told there was no choice back then

If he refused he'd have gone to iuday go to the pen



So his duty he did whilst biting his tongue

As he despatched them all old and young

Thankfully hanging ended before,

He'd been forced to despatch even more



Mostly though my story's boring

Reading it will set you snoring

Some smart Aleck will no doubt comment

Any one got a spare barrel and some cement?

What the bleeding hell is all that about then ?

[PhantomPhlyer]

The Hangman



PP is researching his ancestry

So far reaching year a.d. 953

Family has some Ladies & also has some Lords

Others of the family were Knighted with a sword



Mainly though it's labourers on farms

And some of course were bearing arms

Some from Shropshire some from Gwent

Some from Hereford and even one from Brent



Some from Somerset and some from France

I'll bet they led King Harold a merry old dance

One by marriage was well known

As Executioner to the Crown



Albert Pierrpoint was his name

And people  went as soon as he came

But I'm told there was no choice back then

If he refused he'd have gone to iuday go to the pen



So his duty he did whilst biting his tongue

As he despatched them all old and young

Thankfully hanging ended before,

He'd been forced to despatch even more



Mostly though my story's boring

Reading it will set you snoring

Some smart Aleck will no doubt comment

Any one got a spare barrel and some cement?

[Conchúr]

Not being found guilty doesn't mean they were innocent. If they weren't guilty, why did the police give up looking for those who were?

Wiggles, have you ever actually read the full text of the Guildford Four or Maguire Seven cases — both for the original convictions and appeals?



I know most people don't read case notes, so I'm not necessarily judging you on that. But from what you're saying here — especially on how confident you are in your views — I really really don't think you've read the cases and are relying on either summaries or your own intuition.



Even if one was to read the cases and take the most sceptical interpretation of the appeals — and I mean sceptical to the point of being unreasonable (and bearing in mind these appeals were fought to an incredibly intense level of detail, for example the matter of innocent contamination of nitroglycerin), I still don't think they would take a view as definitive as the one you are taking !

[Thomas]

None of that was true

Well you prove they werent innocent wiggles , and if you cant , we will assume it was just you and bob down the local pub that came to that conclusion and dismiss everything you say accordingly. :roll:

[Wiggles]

They were found guilty on dodgy evidence by a police force under severe pressure , and then  later acquitted. They dont remain  guilty because wiggles and the bloke down the pub decide they werent innocent.



If they were guilty , then why did the bombings and republican activity carry on after their imprisonment?



The police raided the mcguires home in december 1974 and took them into custody , while republican bomb and gun  activity continued , culminating in the balcombe street siege a year later ,where the IRA unit were taken into custody and the members admitted the guildford pub bombings.



Wiggles trolling threads and talking cac yet again. :roll:

None of that was true

[Thomas]

Not being found guilty doesn't mean they were innocent. If they weren't guilty, why did the police give up looking for those who were?

They were found guilty on dodgy evidence by a police force under severe pressure , and then  later acquitted. They dont remain  guilty because wiggles and the bloke down the pub decide they werent innocent.



If they were guilty , then why did the bombings and republican activity carry on after their imprisonment?



The police raided the mcguires home in december 1974 and took them into custody , while republican bomb and gun  activity continued , culminating in the balcombe street siege a year later ,where the IRA unit were taken into custody and the members admitted the guildford pub bombings.



Wiggles trolling threads and talking cac yet again. :roll:

[Wiggles]

No worries john  , then please accept my apology if i read you wrong.



All im pointing out was with respect  , your background of being virulently anti irish across the number of forums i have known you on online for 10 years , when wiggles said this...







and you replied...







Your reply  , in the context of things you have said over the years was a wee bit ambiguous , with the subtle inference denial isnt the same as innocence.



and here again , you say..







This again came across to me as a wee bit ambiguous , with again the inference that had they not fecked the test up , they would have been found guilty when that wasnt the case.



The evidence against them was completely and utterly fabricated  , right from the start where the tests done were already contaminated before they even swabbed the macguire 7 , to the fact a mere 24 months after they were sentenced the english authorities knew they had an unsafe conviction on their hands with the perpetrators admitting guilt and telling them they had innocent people in jail for which the english authorities did absolutely nothing about .



I apologise if i have picked you up wrong , but in my defence john im sure you would be the first to admit you arent known for having one ounce of compassion for anything remotely connected with irish republicanism or the atrocities commited wether those involved are guilty or not.



To get  back to the op , having skimmed through the thread i havent yet seen anyone comment on this example of the potential for 11 innocent people swinging for crimes they most certainly didnt commit had the death penalty been in use when they were convicted.

Not being found guilty doesn't mean they were innocent. If they weren't guilty, why did the police give up looking for those who were?

[Thomas]

Thomas mate you've got me all wrong. I'm not saying ANYONE "got off on a technicality".



I ****KNOW**** that SEVERAL people f*cked up ROYALLY in SEVERAL cases of the time. Some of them were terrorist related and some were nothing of the sort.



I'm not "confusing cases" i was making a general point that seems to have been taken out of context and is getting well out of hand.



Fact is, sloppy forensics (of which I am fully aware of the details because i was one of DOZENS who were paid by the Home Office directly in the aftermath to make sure alternative or reinforcing tests and better procedures were used so the f*ckup would NEVER happen again ...) allowed people to be sent down for things they did not do.



Now in SOME cases it was all the fault of sloppy work by those in white coats.



Sometimes it was bent coppers taking advantage of such.



Sometimes it was lazy coppers or lazy prosecution briefs or bloody insane procedures that allowed bent or uncaring prosecution briefs to destroy or hide from the defence brief clear evidence that they had the wrong man (or woman)



And sometimes it was just the case that evidence pointing to person A stopped the search for the real criminals on the mistaken belief they had them already.



And man. I could cite quite a few cases, not just one. Including the most celebrated mistrial of a supposed mad axe murderer for which I am delighted to have personally helped bring about a change in the law that made sure no one will ever have to go through that sh*t ever again.



Because yes, I want the guilty to f**king swing for it. But i want to see deliberately bent coppers and bent lawyers swung for that too, because they give the bleeding heart liberals the firepower they need to prevent the guilty from swinging and thus enable them to sit out their sentences until they can go back to do it again.



And if I get my hands on the tosspot whose scathing lack of interest in detail caused a bloke to go down as a mad axe murderer then I shall have need of my skills in eradicatng all evidence of a body or my being anywhere near it. Because he above all is the bringer of utter comtempt upon the profession and yet they let him survive in it to collect his pension.....

No worries john  , then please accept my apology if i read you wrong.



All im pointing out was with respect  , your background of being virulently anti irish across the number of forums i have known you on online for 10 years , when wiggles said this...

 That fact is the Guildford four were all IRA members, and that alone justified them being hung.

and you replied...

They of course deny they were .....

Your reply  , in the context of things you have said over the years was a wee bit ambiguous , with the subtle inference denial isnt the same as innocence.



and here again , you say..

Because what actually happened is the forensic analysis  fucked up the test for contact with explosives, so that it falsely reported contact with explosives...

This again came across to me as a wee bit ambiguous , with again the inference that had they not fecked the test up , they would have been found guilty when that wasnt the case.



The evidence against them was completely and utterly fabricated  , right from the start where the tests done were already contaminated before they even swabbed the macguire 7 , to the fact a mere 24 months after they were sentenced the english authorities knew they had an unsafe conviction on their hands with the perpetrators admitting guilt and telling them they had innocent people in jail for which the english authorities did absolutely nothing about .



I apologise if i have picked you up wrong , but in my defence john im sure you would be the first to admit you arent known for having one ounce of compassion for anything remotely connected with irish republicanism or the atrocities commited wether those involved are guilty or not.



To get  back to the op , having skimmed through the thread i havent yet seen anyone comment on this example of the potential for 11 innocent people swinging for crimes they most certainly didnt commit had the death penalty been in use when they were convicted.

[johnofgwent]

I'm not sure if you are cross purposes here, but JoG is saying the explosive samples tests were done incorrectly. I can't see where JoG is saying they were guilty. I've missed something, have I?

Barry, see my most recent post. somehow, thomas has misunderstood what i was trying to say, but it has not helped that something i was trying to say in general has been assumed to be something specific. I hope my latest input on here will clear that up.



Because the problem was rampant in england, wales and scotland and not just in cases of terrorism. in one case a bloke got sent down because the blood on his clothes - his own - was the same blood group to several "levels" down as a woman he was accused of murdering, because of an illegitimate and dodgily recorded birth three or so generations back meand accused and victim were actually related. But some wanker failed to check that the blood on the clothes came from a woman ffs.

[Barry]

Right but that wasnt the guildford four john was it?



From memory it was the mcguire 7 who were supposed to be the bomb makers who were found to have through forensics contact with explosives.



It wasnt a cock up , they were acquitted john. They were innocent , and their only crime was having an irish accent in 1970`s london and being in the wrong place at the wrong time .





https://www.thejusticegap.com/a-great-british-injustice-the-maguire-seven-revisited/">https://www.thejusticegap.com/a-great-b ... revisited/">https://www.thejusticegap.com/a-great-british-injustice-the-maguire-seven-revisited/



The whole forensics argument was nothing more than an elaborate lie. I cant believe all these years later , you actually believe they were guilty and merely let off because of some "f**k up".



FFS john take the blinkers off.

I'm not sure if you are cross purposes here, but JoG is saying the explosive samples tests were done incorrectly. I can't see where JoG is saying they were guilty. I've missed something, have I?

[johnofgwent]

FFS john take the blinkers off.

Thomas mate you've got me all wrong. I'm not saying ANYONE "got off on a technicality".



I ****KNOW**** that SEVERAL people f*cked up ROYALLY in SEVERAL cases of the time. Some of them were terrorist related and some were nothing of the sort.



I'm not "confusing cases" i was making a general point that seems to have been taken out of context and is getting well out of hand.



Fact is, sloppy forensics (of which I am fully aware of the details because i was one of DOZENS who were paid by the Home Office directly in the aftermath to make sure alternative or reinforcing tests and better procedures were used so the f*ckup would NEVER happen again ...) allowed people to be sent down for things they did not do.



Now in SOME cases it was all the fault of sloppy work by those in white coats.



Sometimes it was bent coppers taking advantage of such.



Sometimes it was lazy coppers or lazy prosecution briefs or bloody insane procedures that allowed bent or uncaring prosecution briefs to destroy or hide from the defence brief clear evidence that they had the wrong man (or woman)



And sometimes it was just the case that evidence pointing to person A stopped the search for the real criminals on the mistaken belief they had them already.



And man. I could cite quite a few cases, not just one. Including the most celebrated mistrial of a supposed mad axe murderer for which I am delighted to have personally helped bring about a change in the law that made sure no one will ever have to go through that shit ever again.



Because yes, I want the guilty to fucking swing for it. But i want to see deliberately bent coppers and bent lawyers swung for that too, because they give the bleeding heart liberals the firepower they need to prevent the guilty from swinging and thus enable them to sit out their sentences until they can go back to do it again.



And if I get my hands on the tosspot whose scathing lack of interest in detail caused a bloke to go down as a mad axe murderer then I shall have need of my skills in eradicatng all evidence of a body or my being anywhere near it. Because he above all is the bringer of utter comtempt upon the profession and yet they let him survive in it to collect his pension.....

[Thomas]

Statement from IRA member  , 22 year old joseph o connell , who along with his IRA unit leader brendan dowd , was caught and put on trial two years after the conviction of the guildford four and mcguire 7...

When questioned by Imbert, 22-year-old Joseph O'Connell, who had succeeded Brendan Dowd as the leader of the unit, admitted he had carried out the Woolwich and Guildford bombings with Dowd.



In the tradition of Irish Republicanism, he refused to recognize the court, but added: ''I refuse to plead because the indictment does not include two charges concerning the Guildford and Woolwich pub bombings. I took part in both, for which innocent people have been convicted.'

[/b]



https://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/25/magazine/when-british-justice-failed.html">https://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/25/maga ... ailed.html">https://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/25/magazine/when-british-justice-failed.html