So where are these 40 trade deals?

[BeElBeeBub]

The bottom line is you are like desperate Dan,nothing has changed you lost can't get over it and you are the one that parrots the same old lines over and over again,dress it up all you like but it all boils down to your belief in your own superiority.

I'm perfectly over "losing".



So far pretty much everything is going as expected i.e. a shambles.



It's leavers who seem to be unable to cope with "winning".



Collectively, leavers are like the old joke about the dog that chases cars and then one day catches one.  You have no idea what to do with it and it isn't working out like you imagined.



Leave made many promises, which do you think will be honoured?



"Wait and see" seems rather like an admission that you don't have faith that many will be.

[BeElBeeBub]

How do we know this is or was a lie? We are not free to implement any new deals until after 1st Jan 2021.

Maybe you are privy to the backroom negotiations, I'm not.

But fox didn't say "implement 40 deals"



He said "sign 40 deals"



Formally the UK was not able to negotiate trade deals until we left.



People pointed this out in reference to the fact there would be a gap between leaving the EU and signing (then implementing) any new arrangements



Fox (and others) rubbished this suggestion by saying that the UK could informally negotiate deals that would be ready to sign "the second after midnight".



He has been proven utterly wrong. He is far short of his self imposed target even though he had an extra 10 months.



If the WA and implementation period hadn't been agreed - as many here wanted to happen, there would have been a gap between leaving the EU and any new arrangements.

[GerryT]

Slightly off topic and of little interest to Plastic Paddies such as doggy who probably don't know where Ireland is, but the Micks are having a general election on Saturday. No party is expected to have an overall majority, but Sinn Fein, the Labour party's favourite kneecappers, is expected to do well. And one of their main planks is opposition to foreign investment.



So a lot of that investment that is expected to flee across the Irish sea might not  :hattip

Their concern is our FDI is mainly from the USA, and they would like to see a greater spread to reduce possible issues that might arise. Taking UK FDI would be perfect in their books, so you need not worry so much.

[Borchester]

How do we know this is or was a lie? We are not free to implement any new deals until after 1st Jan 2021.

Maybe you are privy to the backroom negotiations, I'm not.

Slightly off topic and of little interest to Plastic Paddies such as doggy who probably don't know where Ireland is, but the Micks are having a general election on Saturday. No party is expected to have an overall majority, but Sinn Fein, the Labour party's favourite kneecappers, is expected to do well. And one of their main planks is opposition to foreign investment.



So a lot of that investment that is expected to flee across the Irish sea might not  :hattip

[Barry]

, are you courageous enough to admit that the claim regarding the copy / pasting into efficacy of 40 trade deals the day after Brexit was an absolute lie

How do we know this is or was a lie? We are not free to implement any new deals until after 1st Jan 2021.

Maybe you are privy to the backroom negotiations, I'm not.

[cromwell]

no, the attribution was to the leave campaign rather than any individual (although the slogans are often parroted by individuals)

"politicians lie so why be surprised" - is exactly how we get lying politicians.



We get the politicians we deserve and if we tolerate their lying we get lying politicians.  



The change since 2016 is that politicians have realised most of the public don't care about the truth, they just want to be told what they already believe. Trump realised this, Johnson has always known this but has only recently "gone big" on this.

 



So the bottom line is you don't actually care, or never believed the line anyway.



I ask again, what promises are you looking forward to being implemented?



Do you think the ECJ will have no jurisdiction in the UK?



Maybe our waters will be for UK only fishermen



How about not regressing our environmental, food and labour laws?



There must be some aspect of the Leave pitch you thought "yeah, that's what I want"

The bottom line is you are like desperate Dan,nothing has changed you lost can't get over it and you are the one that parrots the same old lines over and over again,dress it up all you like but it all boils down to your belief in your own superiority.

[BeElBeeBub]

And you still didn't answer my last post,You quote something a politician has said and then try to attribute that to individual posters,then second guess what was or wasn't voted for.

no, the attribution was to the leave campaign rather than any individual (although the slogans are often parroted by individuals)

I get you're still mad that despite all the efforts and three and a half years later we left,is this how it's going to be day after day   in 2016 Bloggs said this !"£$^&%£$ you do realise that politicians do this all the time and still get voted in?

"politicians lie so why be surprised" - is exactly how we get lying politicians.



We get the politicians we deserve and if we tolerate their lying we get lying politicians.  



The change since 2016 is that politicians have realised most of the public don't care about the truth, they just want to be told what they already believe. Trump realised this, Johnson has always known this but has only recently "gone big" on this.

 

Why don't we see what transpires at the end of negotiations instead of the daily sulk.

So the bottom line is you don't actually care, or never believed the line anyway.



I ask again, what promises are you looking forward to being implemented?



Do you think the ECJ will have no jurisdiction in the UK?



Maybe our waters will be for UK only fishermen



How about not regressing our environmental, food and labour laws?



There must be some aspect of the Leave pitch you thought "yeah, that's what I want"

[T00ts]

That's fine, just maybe ease off on pontificating about courage when you are reluctant to call a spade a spade.

Oh go and bully someone else!

[Conchúr]

Why should I make you day? You are determined by whatever means you can drum up to be right. I frankly don't care enough to continue.

That's fine, just maybe ease off on pontificating about courage when you are reluctant to call a spade a spade.

[T00ts]

All well and good, but I note that you are still yet to acknowledge that the claim of having 40 trade deals copy / pasted into efficacy the day after Brexit was a lie, and that the people who would have criticised this were not defeatists but simply being realistic.



There's no point in talking about courage Toots if you aren't willing to acknowledge even momentarily that a bare-faced lie was a bare-faced lie.

Why should I make you day? You are determined by whatever means you can drum up to be right. I frankly don't care enough to continue.

[Conchúr]

Why are you so determined to make it a black and white argument? It matters not one jot who is right or wrong at this point. None of the scaremongering held any real sway in the end and it's something that Europhiles have to learn to live with. I actually don't care now what was promised before the ref. it's irrelevant. We are not in the same place now and nor is the EU. What you seem to forget is that we no longer have to play the EU's game. Now that might not make you too happy but that's not mine or the UK's problem. There is no requirement for me to be personally seen as courageous least of all for your satisfaction. So with as much respect as I can currently muster. Get over it, or at least come up with a new direction of thought.

All well and good, but I note that you are still yet to acknowledge that the claim of having 40 trade deals copy / pasted into efficacy the day after Brexit was a lie, and that the people who would have criticised this were not defeatists but simply being realistic.



There's no point in talking about courage Toots if you aren't willing to acknowledge even momentarily that a bare-faced lie was a bare-faced lie.

[T00ts]

You talk about courage, but I don't see you showing much of it on this thread.



I have a history in the forum of saying that many of the extreme predictions of "project fear" were wrong and counter productive.  I'm also happy at any time to spell out to people where I think the downsides and failings of the EU are.  Courage also involves intellectual courage — the ability and willingness to acknowledge the weaknesses and failings of your own side of the argument.



So, following your writings above on courage, are you courageous enough to admit that the claim regarding the copy / pasting into efficacy of 40 trade deals the day after Brexit was an absolute lie and that those who would have criticised this claim at the time were not being soft defeatists but simply being realistic ?

Why are you so determined to make it a black and white argument? It matters not one jot who is right or wrong at this point. None of the scaremongering held any real sway in the end and it's something that Europhiles have to learn to live with. I actually don't care now what was promised before the ref. it's irrelevant. We are not in the same place now and nor is the EU. What you seem to forget is that we no longer have to play the EU's game. Now that might not make you too happy but that's not mine or the UK's problem. There is no requirement for me to be personally seen as courageous least of all for your satisfaction. So with as much respect as I can currently muster. Get over it, or at least come up with a new direction of thought.

[Conchúr]

I was just thinking. I guess we could say that leavers are more realistic than the remain lot. They see only one way forward in life which is shackled to the EU. This involves the prospect of the EU project and it seems there is only one direction to that but whether it will be a success in any terms is debatable. To extricate themselves from it should it become necessary, particularly if they are financially dependent, has been seen to be tricky even for us with our economic strength.



The leavers on the other hand are a bit more flexible and dare I say courageous. We are prepared to branch out, knowing that the future will depend upon our own ambitions and abilities. Prepared to be global in the true sense of the word without the inhibitions of the protectionist ideas offered by the EU bigwigs. Again life is uncertain but we are confident in our ability to adjust with speed if necessary and be competitive once again.



Perhaps this is the main difference.   Ooh plus I guess, we tend to be the strong silent type!  

You talk about courage, but I don't see you showing much of it on this thread.



I have a history in the forum of saying that many of the extreme predictions of "project fear" were wrong and counter productive.  I'm also happy at any time to spell out to people where I think the downsides and failings of the EU are.  Courage also involves intellectual courage — the ability and willingness to acknowledge the weaknesses and failings of your own side of the argument.



So, following your writings above on courage, are you courageous enough to admit that the claim regarding the copy / pasting into efficacy of 40 trade deals the day after Brexit was an absolute lie and that those who would have criticised this claim at the time were not being soft defeatists but simply being realistic ?

[Conchúr]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't ever take what a politician says about what the future holds as being literal. If I did, it would involve both trusting politicians and believing that they are competent.

Yes, politicians lie and this will likely never change.  The problem though is that, in normal political discourse, people tend to eventually react to the lies and question the policy itself — whether it's WMD Iraq, the LibDems on student loans, whatever else. People normally point out the lie or the u-turn and criticise accordingly.  The end result balances out (to some extent) the lying — i.e. people can form realistic expectations about similar promises.  



Brexit is not just a policy, it is a fundamental recalibration of the UK's constitutional status, economic future, foreign policy towards its nearest neighbours and a profound shift in European geopolitics. It is vitally important for the democratic process that (1) the process is not ushered along with lie after lie and (2) where there have been lies, people are willing to acknowledge it and reflect on it.



Whether one takes a comment about copy / pasting 40 deals literally or figuratively (and I still think it was quite a literal claim)  it was still a supremely dishonest playing-down of the complexity of the matter. It's all part of a campaign to play down the complexity, downsides and ideological compromises inherent in Brexit and to portray anyone who questions this as defeatists. Sadly it seems to be working.

[cromwell]

Would you deny that a part of the leave pitch was that EU membership has hampered the UK economy and Brexit will free it from that restriction?



It is true that some Brexiters have always been "it doesn't matter if it costs us...some things are more important than the economy" but that wasn't the central message and I would argue that it wasn't what 17.4m people voted for.



However, you still haven't answered the original question. What are your thoughts that a prominent promise by a prominent Leave politician has proven to be false.  Do you think it will be the only one?



Let me turn it around.  What Leave promises do you think will be honored?

And you still didn't answer my last post,You quote something a politician has said and then try to attribute that to individual posters,then second guess what was or wasn't voted for.



I get you're still mad that despite all the efforts and three and a half years later we left,is this how it's going to be day after day   in 2016 Bloggs said this !"£$^&%£$ you do realise that politicians do this all the time and still get voted in?



Why don't we see what transpires at the end of negotiations instead of the daily sulk.