The Windsor Framework, getting Brexit undone

[BeElBeeBub]

My company does business with Amazon, our software tracks 400,000 parcels in a 24hr shift. The sortation runs at 2.2 M/sec, that's about 5MPH, with a pitch of 400mm per item.  A 40ft artic can either be scanned 30 times more or 30 times faster than this. Our system uses bar codes and 6 sided arrays to scan, RFID is much quicker. You tell me how it is not possible to scan a consignment at a seemless border?
Same as almost all baggage in the world goes through one company: SITA, every Amazon order in the world goes through Seattle. But we can't have a tech border on TIOI.

Amazing tech. 

How does it handle Nail and Dinny, driving down a rural B road to a job with a vanload of copper pipes and tools?

[BeElBeeBub]

Because one is a UK internal border ,the other is a border between the UK and the EU .

That's not a reason the tech (should it exist) cannot be applied there. 

Customs borders at internal borders are not an uncommon thing. Every single freeport has one. 

Remember Freeports? One of the thing Brexiters were clamouring for? Those are defacto internal borders. 

So again, if this tech is so good at making customs borders seamless, why can it not be used between NI and GB and why doesn't any freeport use it?

[Nick]

There are various borders between the nations of the UK, legal, professional, taxation, regulatory etc regimes are different in England from Wales, NI and Scotland.

Fro the point of view of goods and people moving across the border, there are no "hard" borders. 

There are no customs formalities moving goods between the nations. 

Because of this there is no border infrastructure or procedures.  You just drive from A to B.

This was the case between NI(UK) and RoI when we were both part of the EU Single Market and Customs Union.

This is the state that needs to be preserved.
You say "regardless of what experts think" then go on to quote one expert (pretty much the only one who thinks it's possible).  You see how that argument stacks up?

He talks about various tech methods, RFID tags, ANPR, Apps, ePassports etc.  That's great, you can spout all the techno speak yu want, but implementation is the problem.

It's easy to envisage an "invisible" system, in the same way I can envisage an autonomous flying taxi, I just need an appropriate battery, a light enough frame, powerful enough motors and a clever AI to fly it all. Easy.  Except the messy details or reality make it very hard to actually make one that works.

But this brings me back to my central point.

Let's say all the above work perfectly.  You have a system that can make the border between the UK regime and the EU one absolutely seamless .

Why can that not be applied to the NI/GB border?  It would actually be considerably easier at that point as it's a sea crossing between two UK controlled territories.

This is a central question.  Why is the unproven tech good enough for NI/RoI but not NI/GB?

My company does business with Amazon, our software tracks 400,000 parcels in a 24hr shift. The sortation runs at 2.2 M/sec, that's about 5MPH, with a pitch of 400mm per item.  A 40ft artic can either be scanned 30 times more or 30 times faster than this. Our system uses bar codes and 6 sided arrays to scan, RFID is much quicker. You tell me how it is not possible to scan a consignment at a seemless border?
Same as almost all baggage in the world goes through one company: SITA, every Amazon order in the world goes through Seattle. But we can't have a tech border on TIOI. 

[Streetwalker]

But this brings me back to my central point.

Let's say all the above work perfectly.  You have a system that can make the border between the UK regime and the EU one absolutely seamless .

Why can that not be applied to the NI/GB border?  It would actually be considerably easier at that point as it's a sea crossing between two UK controlled territories.

This is a central question.  Why is the unproven tech good enough for NI/RoI but not NI/GB?

Because one is a UK internal border ,the other is a border between the UK and the EU .

[BeElBeeBub]

Your not getting it that there can be no border between parts of the UK anymore than the Irish don't want a border in Ireland . 

There are various borders between the nations of the UK, legal, professional, taxation, regulatory etc regimes are different in England from Wales, NI and Scotland.

Fro the point of view of goods and people moving across the border, there are no "hard" borders. 

There are no customs formalities moving goods between the nations. 

Because of this there is no border infrastructure or procedures.  You just drive from A to B.

This was the case between NI(UK) and RoI when we were both part of the EU Single Market and Customs Union.

This is the state that needs to be preserved.

Regarless what 'experts' think if the will was there on both sides an invisible/smart  customs border could be put virtually anywhere .
But there is no will , The Irish want the border in the Irish sea as it brings a united Ireland closer . The EU want the border in the Irish sea as it gives them control of customs within the UK with the European courts then  . Of course their experts will say the tech is not there for a smart border ,others would dissagree . This guy thought it was douable 5 years ago

Ultra-hi-tech invisible Irish border 'perfectly doable', ex-customs chief says | E&T Magazine (theiet.org)

You say "regardless of what experts think" then go on to quote one expert (pretty much the only one who thinks it's possible).  You see how that argument stacks up?

He talks about various tech methods, RFID tags, ANPR, Apps, ePassports etc.  That's great, you can spout all the techno speak yu want, but implementation is the problem.

It's easy to envisage an "invisible" system, in the same way I can envisage an autonomous flying taxi, I just need an appropriate battery, a light enough frame, powerful enough motors and a clever AI to fly it all. Easy.  Except the messy details or reality make it very hard to actually make one that works.

But this brings me back to my central point.

Let's say all the above work perfectly.  You have a system that can make the border between the UK regime and the EU one absolutely seamless .

Why can that not be applied to the NI/GB border?  It would actually be considerably easier at that point as it's a sea crossing between two UK controlled territories.

This is a central question.  Why is the unproven tech good enough for NI/RoI but not NI/GB?

[Streetwalker]

I'm not sure which of the 4 bits doesn't reflect what you wrote?

My reading is you suggested only 3 (border between NI and RoI) would work, 

 you say 3 is out because the unionists won't consent

Ok you have corrected yourself .

Remember the UK committed to not putting a border on the island of Ireland, the EU takes this seriously as does the US.

There is a border on the island of Ireland whether you like it or not ,there is not a lot anyone can do about that unless the Irish vote for unification . The UK have/had  committed to not putting a hard border in Ireland even in the event of a no deal brexit 

I pointed out that if technologies and procedures to do the above exist, and no actual expert thinks they exist, then surely they could be applied with even greater ease to the sea crossing between NI and GB.

Your not getting it that there can be no border between parts of the UK anymore than the Irish don't want a border in Ireland . Regarless what 'experts' think if the will was there on both sides an invisible/smart  customs border could be put virtually anywhere .
But there is no will , The Irish want the border in the Irish sea as it brings a united Ireland closer . The EU want the border in the Irish sea as it gives them control of customs within the UK with the European courts then  . Of course their experts will say the tech is not there for a smart border ,others would dissagree . This guy thought it was douable 5 years ago 

Ultra-hi-tech invisible Irish border 'perfectly doable', ex-customs chief says | E&T Magazine (theiet.org)

[Nick]

Firstly, you are hanging your argument on the idea that a PM can unilaterally change what the referendum means by a speech or even a leaflet.
The question asked was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" and even that question was explicitly advisory and non-binding (and this is the view of the supreme court).
Secondly, one of the corner stones of our democracy is that parliament is sovereign. Nothing can bind parliament, not the courts, not the monarch not even parliament itself.
"Parliamentry Sovereignty!" was the war cry of Leavers - except when it comes to parliament disagreeing with what they think. Then it's all "enemies of the people" and "remainer MPs shouldn't be able to vote on EU issues"

He didn't change anything, it was prior to the referendum so it was outlining what the referendum meant. And he categorically stated out meant completely out. That includes the SM and CU. 

The rest of your post is just waffle, designed to give your incorrect assessment some gravity, it doesn't. Out meant out. 

[BeElBeeBub]

You had best re read what I wrote because your reply doesnt reflect it .

But FFS how many more times Voting 'leave' meant leaving the single market - and most voters knew it | The Spectator

I'm not sure which of the 4 bits doesn't reflect what you wrote?

My reading is you suggested only 3 (border between NI and RoI) would work, then mentioned various procedures to achieve a border which was simultaneously tight enough to satisfy the requirements and light enough not to trigger cross border troubles. 

Remember the UK committed to not putting a border on the island of Ireland, the EU takes this seriously as does the US. 

I pointed out that if technologies and procedures to do the above exist, and no actual expert thinks they exist, then surely they could be applied with even greater ease to the sea crossing between NI and GB.

Once these techniques and procedures had been proven, it would be far easier to argue they could be applied to NI/RoI.

So far nobody has actually pointed to a border operating as the proposed border should anywhere in the world. 

They said Switzerland, as thy posed I front of border posts. 
They said US/Can border, as they stood at the customs inspection stations. 

[BeElBeeBub]

The referendum wasn't silent on the SM and CU, it was a one word questionnaire based on what Cameron set out in his speech.

These were his exact words.

"And when we have negotiated that new settlement, we will give the British people a referendum with a very simple in-or-out choice to stay in the EU on these new terms; [highlight]or come out altogether[/highlight]. It will be an in/out referendum."

If you have some alternative version to what 'come out altogether' is, nows the time to spring it, cause that sounds pretty much like coming out altogether to me.
It's not a long read, with handily any big words.

Firstly, you are hanging your argument on the idea that a PM can unilaterally change what the referendum means by a speech or even a leaflet. 
The question asked was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" and even that question was explicitly advisory and non-binding (and this is the view of the supreme court). 
Secondly, one of the corner stones of our democracy is that parliament is sovereign. Nothing can bind parliament, not the courts, not the monarch not even parliament itself.
"Parliamentry Sovereignty!" was the war cry of Leavers - except when it comes to parliament disagreeing with what they think. Then it's all "enemies of the people" and "remainer MPs shouldn't be able to vote on EU issues" 

[Streetwalker]

1) you say it "goes against the democratic vote" - untrue. The referendum was silent on SM/CU membership. It only mentioned EU membership. You can say "oh but leaving the EUeans leaving the SM" but that's your interpretation not what was asked.

2) I only included this one for completeness. Ireland, the country that fought a long and protracted war to not be subject to UK rule is not going to vote to leave the EU to subject itself to UK rule.

3 & 4) you say 3 is out because the unionists won't consent, but somehow ignore republican consent (and the referendum result in NI) when it comes to 4. So which is it? Community consent is required or not? You can't just pick one community - that is against the GFA.

Then you talk of the various technological solutions that can make a land border between the SM/CU and UK totally invisible. Let's leave aside the fact nobody has managed to actually find and demonstrate those solutions, but say we did (block chain drones with AI numberplate cameras etc). Why can those exact same technologies not be deployed with even less impact and greater effectiveness on the border between NI and GB? 

If you can't demonstrate this "seameless tech border" across the Irish Sea, which would be very much easier to do with limited routes, enforced wait time on ferry for processing and the UK government controlling both ends of the border. What hope does one across multiple rural land routes, with zero waiting time tolerance and two different regulatory bodies have?

You had best re read what I wrote because your reply doesnt reflect it .

But FFS how many more times Voting 'leave' meant leaving the single market - and most voters knew it | The Spectator

[Nick]

1) you say it "goes against the democratic vote" - untrue. The referendum was silent on SM/CU membership. It only mentioned EU membership. You can say "oh but leaving the EUeans leaving the SM" but that's your interpretation not what was asked.

2) I only included this one for completeness. Ireland, the country that fought a long and protracted war to not be subject to UK rule is not going to vote to leave the EU to subject itself to UK rule.

3 & 4) you say 3 is out because the unionists won't consent, but somehow ignore republican consent (and the referendum result in NI) when it comes to 4. So which is it? Community consent is required or not? You can't just pick one community - that is against the GFA.

Then you talk of the various technological solutions that can make a land border between the SM/CU and UK totally invisible. Let's leave aside the fact nobody has managed to actually find and demonstrate those solutions, but say we did (block chain drones with AI numberplate cameras etc). Why can those exact same technologies not be deployed with even less impact and greater effectiveness on the border between NI and GB? 

If you can't demonstrate this "seameless tech border" across the Irish Sea, which would be very much easier to do with limited routes, enforced wait time on ferry for processing and the UK government controlling both ends of the border. What hope does one across multiple rural land routes, with zero waiting time tolerance and two different regulatory bodies have?

The referendum wasn't silent on the SM and CU, it was a one word questionnaire based on what Cameron set out in his speech.

These were his exact words.

"And when we have negotiated that new settlement, we will give the British people a referendum with a very simple in-or-out choice to stay in the EU on these new terms; [highlight]or come out altogether[/highlight]. It will be an in/out referendum."

If you have some alternative version to what 'come out altogether' is, nows the time to spring it, cause that sounds pretty much like coming out altogether to me.
It's not a long read, with handily any big words.

[BeElBeeBub]

1 Around the UK and Ireland/EU -stay in the SM/CU or Ireland leaves the the EU . Goes against the democratic vote , a non starter
2 Between UK/Ireland and the EU (see 1) We dont need the EU to agree to this one just Ireland

3 Between UK/NI and Ireland - violates GFA and will cause trouble . Ireland wont agree to that .
There is nothing in the good friday agreement that says you cant have customs  controls between Ireland and N Ireland . It only refers to the removal of security instalations not border operations appropriate to and compatable with a normal peaceful society .

Indeed it seems Ireland has the technology to trace anyone going to work that should be at home and what type of diesel they filled up with last but then tell us they cant trace a  truck load of cattle or that the tracking technology is not there for a soft border . Maybe someone should ask Sid Kant  he seems to have managed to monitor 2.3 million cars travelling around London every day , half a dozen meat lorries and Paddy chasing Mick  on pushbike should be no problem
Garda checkpoints Ireland: Officers and Customs officials catch drivers out at unusual checkpoint - Irish Mirror Online


4 Between GB and NI /EU  Unionist wont agree .  Violates the GFA  .
The GFA is based on the principle of consent of all the people of Ireland which includes the unionists . More importantly its also against article 6  of the act of the Union 1800

So the only real option is 3 . If everyone wanted it to work a way would have been found but as we know it not working keeps the UK tied up in knots and why the EU and europhiles make it the last of the choices .Its quite simple if you want Brexit to work its 3 if you don't its one of the others

1) you say it "goes against the democratic vote" - untrue. The referendum was silent on SM/CU membership. It only mentioned EU membership. You can say "oh but leaving the EUeans leaving the SM" but that's your interpretation not what was asked. 

2) I only included this one for completeness. Ireland, the country that fought a long and protracted war to not be subject to UK rule is not going to vote to leave the EU to subject itself to UK rule. 

3 & 4) you say 3 is out because the unionists won't consent, but somehow ignore republican consent (and the referendum result in NI) when it comes to 4. So which is it? Community consent is required or not? You can't just pick one community - that is against the GFA. 

Then you talk of the various technological solutions that can make a land border between the SM/CU and UK totally invisible. Let's leave aside the fact nobody has managed to actually find and demonstrate those solutions, but say we did (block chain drones with AI numberplate cameras etc). Why can those exact same technologies not be deployed with even less impact and greater effectiveness on the border between NI and GB?  

If you can't demonstrate this "seameless tech border" across the Irish Sea, which would be very much easier to do with limited routes, enforced wait time on ferry for processing and the UK government controlling both ends of the border. What hope does one across multiple rural land routes, with zero waiting time tolerance and two different regulatory bodies have?

[Streetwalker]

It's almost as if the warnings that Brexit was going to have major problems with the Irish border were right.

There are 4 places a trade border can go
p
1 Around the UK and Ireland/EU - stay in SM/CU
2 Between UK/Ireland and EU - Ireland and EU won't agree to that
3 Between UK/NI and Ireland - violates GFI and will cause trouble. Ireland won't agree to that.
4 Between GB and NI/Ireland/EU - Unionists won't agree to that.

The only real option was 1. Sure it would piss the brexiters off, but the referendum only said leave the EU and brexiters will be pissed off anyway (it"s their default state to be annoyed and blame someone else) so we'd be no worse off on that front.

Still we are where we are, mostly because of the brexiters inability to deal with reality, and have to make the best of it.

1 Around the UK and Ireland/EU -stay in the SM/CU or Ireland leaves the the EU . Goes against the democratic vote , a non starter 
2 Between UK/Ireland and the EU (see 1) We dont need the EU to agree to this one just Ireland 

3 Between UK/NI and Ireland - violates GFA and will cause trouble . Ireland wont agree to that .
There is nothing in the good friday agreement that says you cant have customs  controls between Ireland and N Ireland . It only refers to the removal of security instalations not border operations appropriate to and compatable with a normal peaceful society .

Indeed it seems Ireland has the technology to trace anyone going to work that should be at home and what type of diesel they filled up with last but then tell us they cant trace a  truck load of cattle or that the tracking technology is not there for a soft border . Maybe someone should ask Sid Kant  he seems to have managed to monitor 2.3 million cars travelling around London every day , half a dozen meat lorries and Paddy chasing Mick  on pushbike should be no problem
 Garda checkpoints Ireland: Officers and Customs officials catch drivers out at unusual checkpoint - Irish Mirror Online


4 Between GB and NI /EU  Unionist wont agree .  Violates the GFA   .
The GFA is based on the principle of consent of all the people of Ireland which includes the unionists . More importantly its also against article 6  of the act of the Union 1800 

So the only real option is 3 . If everyone wanted it to work a way would have been found but as we know it not working keeps the UK tied up in knots and why the EU and europhiles make it the last of the choices .Its quite simple if you want Brexit to work its 3 if you don't its one of the others 

[papasmurf]

Still we are where we are, mostly because of the brexiters inability to deal with reality, and have to make the best of it.

Precisely.

Windsor Framework hurting local haulage companies: Lockhart | DUP (mydup.com)


"I am deeply concerned to learn of the proposed cessation of activity and site closure of Lurgan hauliers Morgan McLernon in my constituency.
Morgan McLernon is a major employer in Upper Bann and is part of the Culina group, the largest UK haulier of chilled and ambient products.
I have been shown the letter from management to workers which explains that despite their best efforts, this decision has become unavoidable because of the negative implications of Brexit in Northern Ireland which are of course defined by the difficulties arising from the imposition of a border down the Irish Sea.
The volume of trade movements across the Irish Sea has been falling since the imposition of the Irish Sea border and particularly since the announcement of the Windsor Framework in February this year as retailers have prepared for the introduction of the Windsor border on October 1st.
It is clear that haulage companies based in Northern Ireland whose business model is predicated on being part of the United Kingdom economy are in real difficulty because of this.

In May it was widely reported that a leading supermarket had advised retailers that the policy of seeking to sustain supermarket operations in Northern Ireland on the basis of the green lane would be the death knell of any supermarket business and that in order to survive under Windsor, supermarkets must get as much of their product as possible from the Republic of Ireland, avoiding the border with its green and red lanes whenever possible.

[BeElBeeBub]

It's almost as if the warnings that Brexit was going to have major problems with the Irish border were right.

There are 4 places a trade border can go 

1 Around the UK and Ireland/EU - stay in SM/CU
2 Between UK/Ireland and EU - Ireland and EU won't agree to that
3 Between UK/NI and Ireland - violates GFI and will cause trouble. Ireland won't agree to that.
4 Between GB and NI/Ireland/EU - Unionists won't agree to that.

The only real option was 1. Sure it would piss the brexiters off, but the referendum only said leave the EU and brexiters will be pissed off anyway (it"s their default state to be annoyed and blame someone else) so we'd be no worse off on that front. 

Still we are where we are, mostly because of the brexiters inability to deal with reality, and have to make the best of it.