This is why we shouldn't rush things...

[Thomas]

brexit's done mate. Happened at the end of January. 

We've left the EU, our membership has expired, we have joined the third countries, we are an ex-member

Nope. If you think people really believe that , then more fool you. You are deluding yourself.

Brexit isnt done , we are in transition , which means all that has happened so far is we have withdrawn meps. Practically everything else remains the same.

If you told me i had scottish indy simply by withdrawing mps from your parliament while everything else remained the same , i would laugh at you.

Brexit will be seen to have been done when the uk withdraws from FOM , ECJ jurisdiction and the C.U , and all the other red lines that many brexiters told you about over the last four years , and not before.

Trying to sell some pig in a poke transition as "brexit" is merely part of the delusion you have been in for the last four years and counting.

The problem, that will bedevil us (you included) going forward, is that the people who are incharge have consistently lied and/or misunderstood the situation.

No.

Thi is your opinion only. You have repeated this auld trope now for the last four years , it hasnt washed then and doesnt wash now.

I , and many others , know exactly what was voted for and why , and this applies to what politicians have said.

Everyone knows fine well politicians lie everytime thier lips move , thats a given . However , the majority want brexit , you have had four years and counting to turn  around opinions , and each election you have been stuffed.

If johnson fails to deliver on promises he made to your country , then the english public will punish him.

You cannot deny that we were all assured that there would be no border between NI and GB.

Yet here we are with..... gasp....a border between NI and GB.

I dont need to deny anything , i want and support a border between northern ireland and the yookay.

What is it you dont understand about me not being on your side and having  , like many others , alterior political motivation?

Now the same bunch of clowns (who have also royally screwed up the pandemic response) are telling us that we must not extend our transition period beyond the end of 2020 despite the fact we are in the middle of a pandemic/economic crisis.

Good!

No more transition period i say !

Should we trust that the people who have consistently lied to us and got things badly wrong are right this time?

No , we should trust what the majority voted for and get brexit , red lines and all , feckin done , and stop all the fannying around.

[BeElBeeBub]

I have to say beelbeeb , you just seem to be fighting a never ending rearguard action over brexit . You are convincing no one , and changing no opinions , with everyones views being completely entrenched.

You are bordering on being in siege mentality.

Brexit is almost done , and the uk is leaving by hook or crook at the end of the year.

brexit's done mate. Happened at the end of January. 

We've left the EU, our membership has expired, we have joined the third countries, we are an ex-member

You are arguin over issues that appear to be important to yourself , but very few others  , such as who has read the WA or borders in the irish sea.

To be quite frank , no one actually gives a feck wether or not there will be a border in the irish sea with the possible exception of northern irish unionists. I have been saying for a long time now , despite the fantasies of certain remainers , northern ireland isnt in any way going to tie england and wales to the eu  in order to keep the union together.

Time and again  , you have been told and seen polls showing that the majority see northern ireland as acceptable collateral damage for england to achieve brexit.

I think you are wasting your time and effort on this subject , as the majority will has hardened and people are determined to leave the eu at the end of the year come what may.

From my personal perspective, I don't care about an Irish sea border. Frankly, if NI decides to rejoin the south and leave the UK, good luck to them.

The problem, that will bedevil us (you included) going forward, is that the people who are incharge have consistently lied and/or misunderstood the situation.

You cannot deny that we were all assured that there would be no border between NI and GB.

Yet here we are with..... gasp....a border between NI and GB.

Now the same bunch of clowns (who have also royally screwed up the pandemic response) are telling us that we must not extend our transition period beyond the end of 2020 despite the fact we are in the middle of a pandemic/economic crisis.

Should we trust that the people who have consistently lied to us and got things badly wrong are right this time?

[Thomas]

I have to say beelbeeb , you just seem to be fighting a never ending rearguard action over brexit . You are convincing no one , and changing no opinions , with everyones views being completely entrenched.

You are bordering on being in siege mentality.

Brexit is almost done , and the uk is leaving by hook or crook at the end of the year.

You are arguin over issues that appear to be important to yourself , but very few others  , such as who has read the WA or borders in the irish sea.

To be quite frank , no one actually gives a feck wether or not there will be a border in the irish sea with the possible exception of northern irish unionists. I have been saying for a long time now , despite the fantasies of certain remainers , northern ireland isnt in any way going to tie england and wales to the eu  in order to keep the union together.

Time and again  , you have been told and seen polls showing that the majority see northern ireland as acceptable collateral damage for england to achieve brexit.

I think you are wasting your time and effort on this subject , as the majority will has hardened and people are determined to leave the eu at the end of the year come what may.

[BeElBeeBub]

You provided a link that asserted nothing. You provided a link to a piece where one person stated that the ERG were asked to voted without reading the WA. So your assertion that they hadn't read it was wrong, you don't know whether they did or not. Correct?

To be fair, that "one person" was the chair of the ERG.

He stated that Gove told the ERG not to bother reading it and that it could be changed later.

However, you are correct, we cannot be certain that famously detail oriented MPs like Mark Francois or Daniel Kawczynski didn't read and completely grasp all the implications of a 500+page international treaty in their free time between the text being published and being voted on given parliament was dissolved and they were fighting a GE for the majority of that time.

They certainly act as though they hadn't read it as reading it tells you that there will be a border in the Irish sea, which seems to be news to many.

[Nick]

I do!

a piece by Brexit ultra and ERG chair at the time, Steve Baker.

https://thecritic.co.uk/boris-must-take-back-control/

How is that related?

Because here....

The ERG apparently didn't even read the WA before voting for it because Gove allegedly told them it could be changed afterwards.

Please tell me you have a link to back that up?

You asked for a link to back up the assertion the EEG hadn't read the WA before voting because Gove told them it cooks be changed later.

I provided a link to an article by the chair of the ERG at the time (Baker) where he explicitly stated that Give told them they didn't need to read it because they could change it later.

You asked for evidence, I provided evidence.

Pretty related

You provided a link that asserted nothing. You provided a link to a piece where one person stated that the ERG were asked to voted without reading the WA. So your assertion that they hadn't read it was wrong, you don't know whether they did or not. Correct?

[BeElBeeBub]

I do!

a piece by Brexit ultra and ERG chair at the time, Steve Baker.

https://thecritic.co.uk/boris-must-take-back-control/

How is that related?

Because here....

The ERG apparently didn't even read the WA before voting for it because Gove allegedly told them it could be changed afterwards.

Please tell me you have a link to back that up?

You asked for a link to back up the assertion the EEG hadn't read the WA before voting because Gove told them it cooks be changed later.

I provided a link to an article by the chair of the ERG at the time (Baker) where he explicitly stated that Give told them they didn't need to read it because they could change it later.

You asked for evidence, I provided evidence.

Pretty related

[Nick]

I do!

a piece by Brexit ultra and ERG chair at the time, Steve Baker.

https://thecritic.co.uk/boris-must-take-back-control/

How is that related?

[BeElBeeBub]

The WA and in particular the Irish Protocol is deliberately worded to obscure.

It doesn't say "there will be tariffs and checks between NI and GB".

It says, "no tariffs will be charged on any goods unless they are 'at risk' and all goods are 'at risk' by default"

Sort of "heads in win, tails you lose" construction.

This is Mr Johnson's "oven ready" deal that he personally endorsed as a good one.

What a surprise....he's full of poop.

[BeElBeeBub]

Please tell me you have a link to back that up?

I do!

a piece by Brexit ultra and ERG chair at the time, Steve Baker.

https://thecritic.co.uk/boris-must-take-back-control/

...After all, he [Gove] said we should vote for the original Withdrawal Agreement without reading it, on the basis Michael Gove articulated: we could change it later.

Remember the government refused to give any time for proper scrutiny of the 500+ pages of text in the WA.

[Mashup]

The ERG apparently didn't even read the WA before voting for it because Gove allegedly told them it could be changed afterwards.

Please tell me you have a link to back that up?

If I recall correctly it was mentioned during Nick Robinson's interview with Arlene Foster. He has a rather good podcast called Political Thinking with Nick Robinson. It was the episode released on the 5th June.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p08g6k4r

As I said 'apparently' and 'allegedly'. I doubt it could ever be confirmed any more than any unrecorded/undocumented conversation can be.

[Nick]

The ERG apparently didn't even read the WA before voting for it because Gove allegedly told them it could be changed afterwards.

Please tell me you have a link to back that up?

[Mashup]

The ERG apparently didn't even read the WA before voting for it because Gove allegedly told them it could be changed afterwards.

I recall the demands for additional time to scrutinise it being shouted down. Seems they were right but sadly 'I told you so' is becoming a depressingly common phrase as the consequences Brexit and the government's poor handling of it kick in.

[BeElBeeBub]

How much of the "LOAN" has been paid back? Probably none.

The £450m to UK automotive companies was fully paid back in 2015



The £80m Otosan loan had a 8 year payback at 2.3% so should be paid back any day now, couldn't find any mention of default in the EIB or Ford's accounts - thought they are pretty weighty.  Usually companies like Ford pay back their loans

[Nick]

What Beelybub says is technically correct Nick.....however, the EU did provide Ford with a loan via the European Investment Bank, which IS an EU institution. The loan was something like  £150 million  - for a factory in Turkey!! ( which is not an EU member of course). So, although the loan was not specifically to relocate a factory,  as claimed by some, including  Hannan  - although it did indeed occur around the same time that Ford chose to close its factory in Southampton, and one would have expected the bank to know why the funds were required.....even if it was merely to build another Ford car factory .......in a non-EU state.

 That fact alone should therefore have indicated to the EU that they were providing EU funding for creating possible competition for factories in the EU,  by assisting the building of a 'factory' in a non- EU member state.



 After all, it wasn't a secret that Ford operate in several European countries

How much of the "LOAN" has been paid back? Probably none.

[Stevlin]

Do you mean like when the EU Paid Ford to relocate out of Southampton? Or every time the French or Germans illegally undercut the City of London and the EU court decides in their favour even though they are breaking EU rules. Sounds a really fair partnership doesn't it?

What Beelybub says is technically correct Nick.....however, the EU did provide Ford with a loan via the European Investment Bank, which IS an EU institution. The loan was something like  £150 million  - for a factory in Turkey!! ( which is not an EU member of course). So, although the loan was not specifically to relocate a factory,  as claimed by some, including  Hannan  - although it did indeed occur around the same time that Ford chose to close its factory in Southampton, and one would have expected the bank to know why the funds were required.....even if it was merely to build another Ford car factory .......in a non-EU state.

 That fact alone should therefore have indicated to the EU that they were providing EU funding for creating possible competition for factories in the EU,  by assisting the building of a 'factory' in a non- EU member state.



 After all, it wasn't a secret that Ford operate in several European countries