VE Day +75

[Thomas]

You know my thoughts on Scottish Independence and on Brexit, so I'm not going to repeat them. I wish you well too, and even though we don't agree on everything, your argument has always been consistent which I respect.



Whether those days existed or not won't matter soon anyway. Sadly the country, egged on by its population, is in the midst of slitting its own throat. They just haven't realised it yet.

Thanks for that , and i wish you all the best too deppity as you know fine well. Yes i take it and give it out on here and other forums , and of course love all the banter  , but you know where im coming from as well.



If ever there was a massive gulf between scottish and english politics , brexit has shown that , and never have i seen such a divide either side of that 800 year old border as our contrasting views on europe show.



This is what im talking about in part with all this never ending world war jolly ups that is being relentlessly forced on us , we have the auld baby boomers like borkie ( i like borkie a lot and i respect him for saying what many english think but dont dare to post) who never fought a world war in his feckin life , and done a stint of navy duty once on the isle of white ferry , dusting down the red coat and medals with a two fingered salute to europe and jam tomorrow promise about the return of the empire better men than him built .



Nae offence to them , but thats the generation that are dragging your country into the gutter , and voting in those feckin muppets that pass as a government  , with some mop haired bullshitting shagger in charge making an arese of everything he touches.



I feel it for the english kids that have to clear up the mess they are going to leave behind .

[Borg Refinery]

You know my thoughts on Scottish Independence and on Brexit, so I'm not going to repeat them. I wish you well too, and even though we don't agree on everything, your argument has always been consistent which I respect.



Whether those days existed or not won't matter soon anyway. Sadly the country, egged on by its population, is in the midst of slitting its own throat. They just haven't realised it yet.

How so in your opinion? I've found your posts quite moving and interesting on this thread so I'm curious to know.

[DeppityDawg]

This isnt aimed at you , but no englishman is ever going to convince me of being better together after you just stuck two fingers up to 500 million europeans. Thats includes the northern english working class sticking their two fingers up to the working class in berlin paris and many other european nations.



Just my opinion deppity , but every vote , im voting with one thing in mind , to end this unequal union , and one day its going to happen. I wish youse all the best  , but i dont want any part in where your nation is headed.



Its a stagnating country constantly looking back to the past and inventing stories of days that never really existed.

You know my thoughts on Scottish Independence and on Brexit, so I'm not going to repeat them. I wish you well too, and even though we don't agree on everything, your argument has always been consistent which I respect.



Whether those days existed or not won't matter soon anyway. Sadly the country, egged on by its population, is in the midst of slitting its own throat. They just haven't realised it yet.

[Thomas]

You're referring to native american indians I presume.



"The fort's commander, Capt. Simeon Ecuyer, reported in a June 16 message to his superior, Philadelphia-based Col. Henry Bouquet, that the situation was dire, with local traders and colonists taking refuge inside the fort's walls. Ecuyer wasn't just afraid of his Native American adversaries. The fort's hospital had patients with smallpox, and Ecuyer feared the disease might overwhelm the population inside the fort's cramped confines.



Bouquet, in turn, passed along the news about the smallpox inside Fort Pitt to his own superior, Amherst, in a June 23 letter. In Amherst's July 7 response, he cold-bloodedly saw an opportunity in the disease outbreak. "Could it not be contrived to Send the Small Pox among those Disaffected Tribes of Indians? We must, on this occasion, Use Every Stratagem in our power to Reduce them."



"We must, on this occasion, Use Every Stratagem in our power to Reduce them."



On July 13, Bouquet, who at that point was traveling across Pennsylvania with British reinforcements for Fort Pitt, responded to Amherst, promising that he would try to spread the disease to the Native Americans via contaminated blankets, "taking care however not to get the disease myself." That tactic seemed to please Amherst, who wrote back in approval on July 16, urging him to spread smallpox "as well as try Every other method that can serve to Extirpate this Execreble [sic] Race.""



https://www.history.com/news/colonists-native-americans-smallpox-blankets">https://www.history.com/news/colonists- ... x-blankets">https://www.history.com/news/colonists-native-americans-smallpox-blankets



It didn't even work that well, apparently Fort Pitt was actually infected...from the Indians.

I remember reading about how the native american indians wrongly are accredited with scalping.



From memoery many of the english settlers took the old anglo saxon punishment of scalping victims to the colonies and the indians in turn thought it had some sort of religous significance among white man and started copying them.



I actually thought the small pox incidence was about the sub continent indians , so i stand corrected .Of course  , it wasnt just the english and germans who commited atrocities on the side of fairness, but by christ , there is so much to forgive. :-?



still all interesting  , and a welcome diversion from the never ending world war "celebrations".

[Thomas]

You're referring to native american indians I presume.



"The fort's commander, Capt. Simeon Ecuyer, reported in a June 16 message to his superior, Philadelphia-based Col. Henry Bouquet, that the situation was dire, with local traders and colonists taking refuge inside the fort's walls. Ecuyer wasn't just afraid of his Native American adversaries. The fort's hospital had patients with smallpox, and Ecuyer feared the disease might overwhelm the population inside the fort's cramped confines.



Bouquet, in turn, passed along the news about the smallpox inside Fort Pitt to his own superior, Amherst, in a June 23 letter. In Amherst's July 7 response, he cold-bloodedly saw an opportunity in the disease outbreak. "Could it not be contrived to Send the Small Pox among those Disaffected Tribes of Indians? We must, on this occasion, Use Every Stratagem in our power to Reduce them."



"We must, on this occasion, Use Every Stratagem in our power to Reduce them."



On July 13, Bouquet, who at that point was traveling across Pennsylvania with British reinforcements for Fort Pitt, responded to Amherst, promising that he would try to spread the disease to the Native Americans via contaminated blankets, "taking care however not to get the disease myself." That tactic seemed to please Amherst, who wrote back in approval on July 16, urging him to spread smallpox "as well as try Every other method that can serve to Extirpate this Execreble [sic] Race.""



https://www.history.com/news/colonists-native-americans-smallpox-blankets">https://www.history.com/news/colonists- ... x-blankets">https://www.history.com/news/colonists-native-americans-smallpox-blankets



It didn't even work that well, apparently Fort Pitt was actually infected...from the Indians.

again thanks for the link and yet another little known part of yookay history. Bet thats not taught in school in among the d day landings and hastings. :roll:

[Borg Refinery]

I need to find the link when i get a minute , but talking about coronavirus , what was that i was hearing on another site that the british delberately infected the indians with smallpox in some mass trial during the days of empire to produce herd immunity and killed thousands of them during the experiment?

You're referring to native american indians I presume.



"The fort's commander, Capt. Simeon Ecuyer, reported in a June 16 message to his superior, Philadelphia-based Col. Henry Bouquet, that the situation was dire, with local traders and colonists taking refuge inside the fort's walls. Ecuyer wasn't just afraid of his Native American adversaries. The fort's hospital had patients with smallpox, and Ecuyer feared the disease might overwhelm the population inside the fort's cramped confines.



Bouquet, in turn, passed along the news about the smallpox inside Fort Pitt to his own superior, Amherst, in a June 23 letter. In Amherst's July 7 response, he cold-bloodedly saw an opportunity in the disease outbreak. "Could it not be contrived to Send the Small Pox among those Disaffected Tribes of Indians? We must, on this occasion, Use Every Stratagem in our power to Reduce them."



"We must, on this occasion, Use Every Stratagem in our power to Reduce them."



On July 13, Bouquet, who at that point was traveling across Pennsylvania with British reinforcements for Fort Pitt, responded to Amherst, promising that he would try to spread the disease to the Native Americans via contaminated blankets, "taking care however not to get the disease myself." That tactic seemed to please Amherst, who wrote back in approval on July 16, urging him to spread smallpox "as well as try Every other method that can serve to Extirpate this Execreble [sic] Race.""



https://www.history.com/news/colonists-native-americans-smallpox-blankets">https://www.history.com/news/colonists- ... x-blankets">https://www.history.com/news/colonists-native-americans-smallpox-blankets



It didn't even work that well, apparently Fort Pitt was actually infected...from the Indians.

[Thomas]

Well let's not kid ourselves here were the position of Scotland and England reversed in this union it would be Scottish primacy as far as history and all other things you complain of now.Neot saying either is right.

And lets not kid ourselves cromwell if the roles in this unequal union were reveresed do you seriously think the proud english people would put up with it?



Like hell they would.



We in scotland merely want to join these proud independent nations....



https://indyposterboy.scot/wp-content/webp-express/webp-images/doc-root/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/another_independent_country.jpg.webp">

[Thomas]

That is a very good point. We could point to something like the Bengal famine too, although that's not quite as clear-cut as the Irish famine...



"

Mukerjee has presented evidence the cabinet was warned repeatedly that the exhaustive use of Indian resources for the war effort could result in famine, but it opted to continue exporting rice from India to elsewhere in the empire.



Rice stocks continued to leave India even as London was denying urgent requests from India's viceroy for more than 1m tonnes of emergency wheat supplies in 1942-43. Churchill has been quoted as blaming the famine on the fact Indians were "breeding like rabbits", and asking how, if the shortages were so bad, Mahatma Gandhi was still alive.



Mukerjee and others also point to Britain's "denial policy" in the region, in which huge supplies of rice and thousands of boats were confiscated from coastal areas of Bengal in order to deny resources to the Japanese army in case of a future invasion.

"



https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/29/winston-churchill-policies-contributed-to-1943-bengal-famine-study">https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... mine-study">https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/29/winston-churchill-policies-contributed-to-1943-bengal-famine-study

I need to find the link when i get a minute , but talking about coronavirus , what was that i was hearing on another site that the british delberately infected the indians with smallpox in some mass trial during the days of empire to produce herd immunity and killed thousands of them during the experiment?

[cromwell]

Cromwell , i have known you online for a long time , for what its worth and we agree on many issues , and i dont dislike you in any way.

 And neither me you  

We are however implaccably opposed on two main issues , scottish indy and the uk , and brexit.

Only in that I believe in the union but don't deny you independence if you vote for it.

Remembering history and learning lessons isnt what is happening with these non stop brit nat world war celebrations though is it? we arent researching the true story of world war two , but indulging in vera lynn butcher apron bunting of myths about britian fighting evil and winnig the war , neither of which sis true , so its isn't a reflection of historical understanding , but mere playing of british nationalists propaganda.

Well I think it pointless in reiterating I'm not celebrating

.cromwell dont make me go back through this whole thread and prove this wrong.

I'm not making you do anything (like I could anyway) I disagree with your conclusions,best left to any observers on the rights or wrongs

Many nations helped defeat the nazis , but they arent constantly engaged in some spurious never ending jingoistic festival over never ending celebrations of winning the war . Most of the grown up nations have either tried to move on , or remember with quiet reflection.

Remember with quiet reflection is fine by me,like I said I ain't celebrating.

Why do we need to selectively cherry pick one certain historical period

I'm not selecting by cherrypicking or otherwise,I am expressing an opinion I laid out as a piece of history that shouldn't be forgotten,that you ,Barry,Jog or anyone else disagree is irrelevant to me I don't need your approval or disapproval for an opinion I hold.

Whats this got to do with my example of british authorities suppressing history?

Well let's not kid ourselves here were the position of Scotland and England reversed in this union it would be Scottish primacy as far as history and all other things you complain of now.Neot saying either is right.

[Thomas]

That is a very good point. We could point to something like the Bengal famine too, although that's not quite as clear-cut as the Irish famine...



"

Mukerjee has presented evidence the cabinet was warned repeatedly that the exhaustive use of Indian resources for the war effort could result in famine, but it opted to continue exporting rice from India to elsewhere in the empire.



Rice stocks continued to leave India even as London was denying urgent requests from India's viceroy for more than 1m tonnes of emergency wheat supplies in 1942-43. Churchill has been quoted as blaming the famine on the fact Indians were "breeding like rabbits", and asking how, if the shortages were so bad, Mahatma Gandhi was still alive.



Mukerjee and others also point to Britain's "denial policy" in the region, in which huge supplies of rice and thousands of boats were confiscated from coastal areas of Bengal in order to deny resources to the Japanese army in case of a future invasion.

"



https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/29/winston-churchill-policies-contributed-to-1943-bengal-famine-study">https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... mine-study">https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/29/winston-churchill-policies-contributed-to-1943-bengal-famine-study

thanks for that dynamis. :thup:

[Borg Refinery]

So? England wiped out half the population of ireland , millions of people with 28 artifically induced famines so that now in 2020 irleand still hasnt reached its population in 1820. Thats without the power of modern technology hitler had. Thats an example of the evil of empire in one feckin country.

That is a very good point. We could point to something like the Bengal famine too, although that's not quite as clear-cut as the Irish famine...



"

Mukerjee has presented evidence the cabinet was warned repeatedly that the exhaustive use of Indian resources for the war effort could result in famine, but it opted to continue exporting rice from India to elsewhere in the empire.



Rice stocks continued to leave India even as London was denying urgent requests from India's viceroy for more than 1m tonnes of emergency wheat supplies in 1942-43. Churchill has been quoted as blaming the famine on the fact Indians were "breeding like rabbits", and asking how, if the shortages were so bad, Mahatma Gandhi was still alive.



Mukerjee and others also point to Britain's "denial policy" in the region, in which huge supplies of rice and thousands of boats were confiscated from coastal areas of Bengal in order to deny resources to the Japanese army in case of a future invasion.

"



https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/29/winston-churchill-policies-contributed-to-1943-bengal-famine-study">https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... mine-study">https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/29/winston-churchill-policies-contributed-to-1943-bengal-famine-study

[Thomas]

Yes always believed that and love history for what it can teach us,have read much on modern history from the U.S. civil war to what lead to WW1 and subsequently WW2.



This being a forum there are bound to be disagreements but I like anybody get frustrated when I feel I am being misrepresented,holding a minority view even it being of one doesn't make you wrong (or even right)

anyway to address your post

Cromwell , i have known you online for a long time , for what its worth and we agree on many issues , and i dont dislike you in any way.



We are however implaccably opposed on two main issues , scottish indy and the uk , and brexit.



Remebering history and learning lessons isnt what is happening with these non stop brit nat world war celebrations though is it? we arent researching the true story of world war two , but indulging in vera lynn butcher apron bunting of myths about britian fighting evil and winnig the war , neither of which sis true , so its isnt a refelction of historical understanding , but mere playing of british nationalists propaganda.

No I don't cherrypick Thomas and I am speaking for myself not for my country

yes you do and we have had a long running debate on the subject for many years over many threads.



This is merely the latest.

my only narrative here is that WW2,the holocaust,facism,nazism and their defeat was worthwhile and for ordinary people a fight worth fighting IMO note that Thomas it's just my opinion,as said previously doesn't mean I defend all actions of the empire,katyn forest,Stalin,that at least 20 million Russians perished,colonialism,chagos Islands,the oppression of Ireland or any other such historical acts

cromwell dont make me go back through this whole thread and prove this wrong. Thats  wasnt your only narrative , and i picked you up on what you were saying and trying to insinuate.



Many nations helped defeat the nazis , but they arent constantly engaged in some spurious never ending jingoistic festival over never ending celebrations of winning the war . Most of the grown up nations have either tried to move on , or remember with quiet reflection.



Not trotting out the butcher apron bunting and two world wars and one world cup taunts while replaying never ending vera lynn records while navel gazing back to the days of empire.



Further i havent yet said you are defedning the evil actions of your empire , im saying you turn a blind eye on occassion to bits you find unpalatable over the years i have known you while continuing to fling muck at the germans over soemthing that happend three quarters of a feckin century ago.



Why do we need to selectively cherry pick one certain historical period yet ignore the rest to massage anglo saxon ego? Its getting boring now , as barry said , the germans are our friends , and you have fought longer and harder with scotland and france than you ever did with germany.



I suppose from my politcal perspective its great news for scotland when england keeps dragging out two world wars and one world cup tropes annually.

I believe what happened,the Industrialisation of murder was a time so momentous in human history IMO nobody has to agree but I feel it is worth remembering

So? England wiped out half the population of ireland  , millions of people with 28 artifically induced famines so that now in 2020 irleand still hasnt reached its population in 1820. Thats without the power of modern technology hitler had. Thats an example of the evil of empire in one feckin country.

Well I don't recollect using the word noble,more something that was worthwhile and had to be done

Tedious minutiae cromwell , and yet another deflection. For the record i inserted it sarcastically.

Where's labour in Scotland now,or the North of England?

Where they belong. Whats this got to do with my example of british authorities suppressing history?

No Thomas I read history and see the good bad and in between,ignored? well you're not letting that happen are you

No chance wae me cromwell. ::  :thup:



I think the  teaching of scotlands history is a basic part of bringing us our freedom. For too long it has been suppressed.



Why the feck are scottish schoolchildren intersted in the english getting humped in 1066 , or some darkage group called the anglo saxons who never held scotland , when scottish battles like saving france from england at the battle of bauge are forgotten , or other aspects of our history like the radical rebellion of 1820 are hidden away so as not to offend british sensibilities while we are constantly bombarded with never ending stories of the war of 1939 - 45?



Thats the hard thing for the british  , and shows the quicksand that the british state is built on , prior to 1707 , there is nothing but one big uncomfortable grey area of four differing nations with differnet languages and cultures that puts paid to this idea of british homogenity.



Thats why all they have left is never ending stories of the second world war. The rest of history is far too uncomfortable for the british .



FFS , if i even mention the name england or the english its like a dirty word on forums like this for some strange reason.

[cromwell]

Cromwell , i agree with you from a historical perspective of the importance of history , and the old adage of those who forget are doomed to repeat

Yes always believed that and love history for what it can teach us,have read much on modern history from the U.S. civil war to what lead to WW1 and subsequently WW2.



This being a forum there are bound to be disagreements but I like anybody get frustrated when I feel I am being misrepresented,holding a minority view even it being of one doesn't make you wrong (or even right)

anyway to address your post

, so why then is your country among the biggest silencers of unpalatable history and  spreader of romantic propaganda of a world that never existed?



You selectively cherry pick parts of history to suit your narrative , while ignoring or deliberately attemtping to delete that which doesnt suit your narrative..

No I don't cherrypick  Thomas and I am speaking for myself not for my country,my only narrative here is  that WW2,the holocaust,facism,nazism and their defeat was worthwhile and for ordinary people a fight worth fighting IMO note that Thomas it's just my opinion,as said previously doesn't mean I defend all actions of the empire,katyn forest,Stalin,that at least 20 million Russians perished,colonialism,chagos Islands,the oppression of Ireland or any other such historical acts.

I believe what happened,the Industrialisation of murder was a time so momentous in human history IMO  nobody has to agree but I feel it is worth remembering.

Every despot in history has thought he was leading a noble crusade against evil doers.

Well I don't recollect using the word noble,more something that was worthwhile and had to be done

We had the glasgow labour controlled council deliberately trying to suppress the remains in sighthill cemetary of the 19th century scottish radicals who rebelled against the british government in the last known armed uprising on uk soil on the orders of their london masters.

Where's labour in Scotland now,or the North of England?

...and you talk about the importance of not ignoring history?



If its not british nationalists propaganda , then the golden rule is it is indeed ignored

No Thomas I read history and see the good bad and in between,ignored? well you're not letting that happen are you?

[Thomas]

I think you're mis-interpreting what I said - I said Scots have always been over represented, but I never claimed this was out of any loyalty to Britain, any more than it is for lads from Sheffield or Swansea. Most squaddies loyalty is to their Regiment and to their mates anyway. I think Scots have always been over represented, like those from English industrial cities and the Welsh Valleys, because that is where inequality, poverty and lack of opportunity are at their worst - not all of Scotland, or all of England - but by your owns words many times in threads on both this and the old forum, the Union has not exactly done the average kid from the poorer areas of Glasgow or Stirling many favours over the years - there are also many more working class kids from the big English cities like Leeds, Plymouth, Liverpool and Newcastle, than there are from Milton Keynes and Tunbridge Wells for the same reason

ok then apologies i misunderstood you.



Personally speaking , i have no interest in working class solidarity with england and wales , and england and wales alone. This isnt having any sort of a dig at you deppity , but this is merely the old trope labour used to spin to the sweaties in days gone by.



...and as we always retorted to them , why does working class solidarity  and comradeship always have to extend to england and wales , but no further.



What about the working class friendship and solidarity with many other nations around the world?



We also touch upon another myth here deppity , from british history , on the make up of the armed forces and reasons why people fought for britain. Borkie a while back lamented why modern britian spending a higher proportion of GDP couldnt fund and sustain a relatively powerfull armed forces , yet 100 years ago was the worlds foremost military power.



I retorted contrary to the myth that the "british army" was the sassenachs jocks paddies and taffs , the vast majority of the uk forces over the last 3 centuries if nor more were made up of the citizens of empire nations. Nations who not only had to supply fit young men to serve....but fund them into the bargain.



In modern popular british culture , we never hear much about working class poor kids from mumbai or dublin who were slaughtered in their hundreds of thousands fighting for the empire. The graveyards of France are full of indian soldiers.



Again though , i think as you say this is no longer the case...........wortking class kids from the impoverished areas of england scotland etc etc no longer are interested as much as they once were in a career in the army. From memory , the percentage of young scots joining up has been falling for decades.



I firmly believe  , however unpalatable it may be to some , that the british armed forces will one way or the other be fully subsumed into either NATO or some european defence force. Britain is struggling badly to maintain its forces , as are many of the old european powers  .

It wasn't so much of a political subject in the 80s, but its nothing new. I remember there were plenty of Scots whose identity was Scottish first, and I'm sure that's probably still the case. Even though the old demarcations exist less than they did, and there are lots of Scots with English Regiments and vice versa, being in the Army doesn't extinguish your identity.

Without a doubt deppity , and i know you werent claiming otherwise. My understanding or both social and military history isnt though that prior to wee krankie and salmond the scottish were and always had been "british" .



The 2011 census shows 62 % of scottish people thought of their nation as scotland and national identity as scottish , so even though the politics of independence may not have been as apparent then as now , as you say , it doesnt mean they didnt exist.



The most pro british generation in history is from what i have learned those born in the post war consensus here in scotland , and as they were the pinnacle of britishness , so since then has britishness been falling away as an idnetity in scotland as more and more question the point of the union.



We in scotland have over contributed in terms of manpower and crucially funding , with the last figures i read scotland was contributing 3.3 billion ( over a billion more than the eu average) to uk defence , most of what is spent by your government outside scotland , while being forced to host the uk nuclear warheads 30 miles from our most populous city , to the anger of many scots.



The world is massively changing deppity , and alhtough we come from similar backgrounds in terms of class , similar upbringings and many other things we have  in common , im never at any time ever going to support the continuation of this union which has been a feckin disaster in every which way for scotland.



Better to be friendly neighbours than this constant fighting like rats in a sack under some illusion of british unity that doesnt exist.



This isnt aimed at you , but no englishman is ever going to convince me of being better together after you just stuck two fingers up to 500 million europeans. Thats includes the northern english working class sticking their two fingers up to the working class in berlin paris and many other european nations.



Just my opinion deppity , but every vote , im voting with one thing in mind , to end this unequal union , and one day its going to happen. I wish youse all the best  , but i dont want any part in where your nation is headed.



Its a stagnating country constantly looking back to the past and inventing stories of days that never really existed.

[DeppityDawg]

You contradict yourself here deppity.Sorry if im misunderstanind you here ,but At first you say scots are over represented in the british army , and always have been , with the insinuation if im reading you right that somehow this signifies loyalty to britian with the mass amounts joining up , then you go onto say its mainly young poor boys from working class backgrounds. Could it not show that it was merely young poor boys at one stage looking for a way to gain a trade , see a bit of the world and drag themselves out of poverty rather than a sense of loyalty to a country?

I think you're mis-interpreting what I said - I said Scots have always been over represented, but I never claimed this was out of any loyalty to Britain, any more than it is for lads from Sheffield or Swansea. Most squaddies loyalty is to their Regiment and to their mates anyway. I think Scots have always been over represented, like those from English industrial cities and the Welsh Valleys, because that is where inequality, poverty and lack of opportunity are at their worst - not all of Scotland, or all of England - but by your owns words many times in threads on both this and the old forum, the Union has not exactly done the average kid from the poorer areas of Glasgow or Stirling many favours over the years - there are also many more working class kids from the big English cities like Leeds, Plymouth, Liverpool and Newcastle, than there are from Milton Keynes and Tunbridge Wells for the same reason



Undoubtedly, many do want to drag themselves out of poverty - I did - and those with talent and ability can gain a trade in the signals or RE for instance. But the SG3's and 4s, the infantry, they come largely from disadvantaged backgrounds, and its always been so since Wellington fought Napoleon.

Half of scotland wants independence , and i would imagine large amounts of scots soldiers in the brit army want it too. I know for a fact , i have many family and friends still serving who want scottish independence.

It wasn't so much of a political subject in the 80s, but its nothing new. I remember there were plenty of Scots whose identity was Scottish first, and I'm sure that's probably still the case. Even though the old demarcations exist less than they did, and there are lots of Scots with English Regiments and vice versa, being in the Army doesn't extinguish your identity.