VE Day +75

[DeppityDawg]

A peoples war? Just?



Deppity dawg is normally the first person to tell anyone that wars are never about being "just" , or good verses evil. Just wars and good v evil is nothing  but empty horse manure from popular culture.

I was commenting from a soldiers point of view, which I think I said, was along the lines of "there are few alternatives to good v bad to WW2", or words to that effect. Which if compared to the UKs withdraw from empire conflicts that followed, or the French/US in Vietnam, or the various proxy wars and direct involvement in the Middle East and Afghanistan by the West in general for arguments sake, it was a "justifiable" war from a peoples perspective. Unless we want to get into a whole world of hurt about the holocaust and whether Britain (or any other European colonial power come to that) falls into the same category as Nazi Germany. I'm not generally one to defend the UKs "reputation" Thomas, because I've seen it in action, and you know that. But the UK was not Nazi Germany, not in imho anyway.



Nevertheless, I wouldn't disagree that the UKs establishment (Royal Family anyone?) were blowing sugar up the Germans arse for years before WW2 broke out, but I haven't read enough about it to comment, only that despite the "peoples" war moniker, its generally not the establishment that fight wars, but the working class kids, as we've both observed before. There I think, is the difference between the ordinary soldiers view of WW2 and the establishments. Churchill "won" the war, but Labour won the peace. That was the their victory, in that it broke a large part of what the (far worse) "establishment" was before 1939 I guess.

We seem to have been in some never ending feckin cycle for the last 6 years at least of being told to "celebrate" something to do with the first or second world war , and its getting silly now. I remember camerons government announcing back in 2014 the celebrations of the start of world war one.

I agree. As I said, I don't think anyone should be compelled to "celebrate" anything if they aren't inclined to. Neither do I think anyone should be guilt tripped for doing so either. For me anyway, its only ever about remembrance, and that's because as a former soldier, its about respect for those who suffered and those we lost.

[Thomas]

I know and as stated in my post - you said the same thing he did.



You differ on how to express this - I guess he thinks the VE day commemorations are the way to do it, whereas you have your family war medals on display and stuff.



I don't detract from either of your arguments, imho it's been a great discussion.

Cromwell can celebrate ve day in any way he likes all day long. I prefer to remember my family memebrs who lost their lives in my own way.



My main gripe with cromwell is his selective view of history time and gain , its a long running discussion between us. How as i keep saying he loves to ignore the things about england/britian historcially he finds unplalatable while constantly flagging up the faults of other countries like germany.



The vast majority of germans werent fascists and were the vitims of hitler as much as anyoe else. They have paid their dues over the years , and the slate is wiped clean as far as i can see.



However , it we are going to keep flinging historical mud , then if i was an englishman , i would think very carfully before doing so.



Hitler was a child compared to what the london elite have done in many countries over the centuries.

[Borg Refinery]

As far as i can see no one now or at any time i can recall has seriously argued that fascism isnt evil or bad.

I know and as stated in my post - you said the same thing he did.



You differ on how to express this - I guess he thinks the VE day commemorations are the way to do it, whereas you have your family war medals on display and stuff.



I don't detract from either of your arguments, imho it's been a great discussion.

[Thomas]

One last reply on this,people like me eh Thomas? you mention Chamberlain and the Duke of Windsor as if I endorsed or even posted about them,bring up about the British concentration camps,something to be proud of? no not really but to compare them to the Nazi death factories is pathetic.

And you went and talked to everyone,no you didn't.

 :hattip

You mention war being about good and evil and i am giving you examples of how that is horshit.



As i told you before , you english call the an ghorta mor  , the great hunger in ireland , "the irish potatos famine" , which is like calling the second world war holocaust the jewish oxygen famine.



The irish had plenty of food  , like the jews had plenty of air , but somehow in popular english culture , one is a nasty calculated killking of a group of people based on race , while the other is some indiscriminate killing of  a nation of people laughably because of some potato blight.



Do you see what i am getting at and how propaganda changes two similar events ito different things?

And you went and talked to everyone,no you didn't.

Well i obviousy spoke to more folk than you who were actually involved , otherwise you wouldnt be spinning this utter horshit about warm cuddly wars of good v evil.



Dont mention the "evil " british Gunning down those innocent "good " protestors in bloody sunday in northern ireland. :roll:  ::

[Thomas]

::



Okay, my point is that Fascism is evil and cromwell's right to say we should not forget how evil it is nor the sacrifices of everyone else

As far as i can see no one now or at any time i can recall has seriously argued that fascism isnt evil or bad.



The point i keep making is  , the second world war and the uk involvement was feck all to do with fighting fascism.



A few history books on the subject make that clear time and again.



There are many evil regimes of many different persuasions in the world past and present , that didnt stop britian  supporting them when it suited , or the westminster elite behaving like them when it suited.



Hitler threatened britians interests  , thats why we went to war with him , not because of some noble reason cromwell likes to dream up.



All this fighting to free people from concentration camps and the evils of fascism ismerely modern day propaganda that didnt have a single piece of relevance during the actual war itself.

[cromwell]

Aye thats exactly what i did , unlike you cromwell. i went around asking as many old vets as possible their experiences and reading up on it , and the fantasy that is played out now they were all marching of to fight in some noble war of the good british versus the evil germans is rubbish.



Up until the year befoer the outbreak of war , the british elite were appeasing the germans that much in political terms hitler initialy wanted to try and forge an alliance. The english had long held the germans as far off kin , and the hatred in england wasnt for the fascist germans , but the french.



This whole issue of world war two being some great dynastic battle between good allies versus evil germans falls flat on its face at every hurdle.



The communist russians were seen as a greater threat to western europe before and after the war than the germans , yet that didnt stop the british good guys teaming up with stalin and his despotic mob to defeat the germans.



Are you delberately ignoring the vast atrocities stalin and the russians carried out while only focusing on the german "fascist" as it doesnt suit your warm cuddly narrative of good v evil?



Hitler admired the british empire , and openly mimicked them by copying the british concentration camp , used by the british to kill thousands of boers in south africa .



Funny how you regularly talk about the evils of germand fascism but tell us all to shut up when we want to talk about the evils of the british empire , and things like their starving to death of forced emigration of half the population of ireland and bengal. I dont recall any english people talking about the "just war" the irish led against the english fascists  in the early twentieth century.



People like you cromwell love the germans and nazis and their faults because it takes a lot of the flak off england for the many , and there are many  , crimes against humanity you committed over the years in many countries.



Mustnt talk about that though eh?

One last reply on this,people like me eh Thomas? you mention Chamberlain and the Duke of Windsor as if I endorsed or even posted about them,bring up about the British concentration camps,something to be proud of? no not really but to compare them to the Nazi death factories is pathetic.

And you went and talked to everyone,no you didn't.

 :hattip

[Thomas]

 as you said to me why did you go round and ask everyone

Aye thats exactly what i did , unlike you cromwell. i went around asking as many old vets as possible their experiences and reading up on it , and the fantasy that is played out now they were all marching of to fight in some noble war of the good british versus the evil germans is rubbish.



Up until the year befoer the outbreak of war , the british elite were appeasing the germans that much in political terms hitler initialy wanted to try and forge an alliance. The english had long held the germans as far off kin , and the hatred in england wasnt for the fascist germans , but the french.



This whole issue of world war two being some great dynastic battle between good allies versus evil germans falls flat on its face at every hurdle.



The communist russians were seen as a greater threat to western europe before and after the war than the germans , yet that didnt stop the british good guys teaming up with stalin and his despotic mob to defeat the germans.



Are you delberately ignoring the vast atrocities stalin and the russians carried out while only focusing on the german "fascist" as it doesnt suit your warm cuddly narrative of good v evil?



Hitler admired the british empire , and openly mimicked them by copying the british concentration camp , used by the british to kill thousands of boers in south africa .



Funny how you regularly talk about the evils of germand fascism but tell us all to shut up when we want to talk about the evils of the british empire , and things like their starving to death of forced emigration of half the population of ireland and bengal. I dont recall any english people talking about the "just war" the irish led against the english fascists  in the early twentieth century.



People like you cromwell love the germans and nazis and their faults because it takes a lot of the flak off england for the many , and there are many  , crimes against humanity you committed over the years in many countries.



Mustnt talk about that though eh?

[cromwell]

How do you know it was a people war? Did you go around asking everyone ?



The "people" were sheep who were kept out of things when it suited the elite , and then sent into battle when the elites opinions changed.



All the while atrocities were being carried out which most folk either dismissed as anti hun propaganda or didnt know about. Its only a peoples war in your mind mate to give you some warm cuddly gow inside , and tells me everything i need to know .







Can you prove this? Most folk knew what had to be done and for why?



I could give you loads of reasons i have either read or heard about firsthand why people fought in that war , and the idea most were somehow joining up to fight in some just war of good verses evil really is nonsense cromwell.







The british condoned fascism in nazi germany for years and did nothing about it.........







 Further as one of the articles made the point , you tell us about the noble british fighting fascism and liberating europe from nazi tyranny , but you forget to mention the british were fighting in the far east to return countries like burma to british rule.



Bet the burmese couldnt give a feck wether the german , japanese or british fascists were in control , they just wanted you all out their land.















I dont really give a stuff what you believe either cromwell , what i object to is having this rule brittannia member we used to have an empire once shite stuffed down our throats every year and the latest world war jingoistic horshit  on how england won the war with a little bit of help from russia and america .

Its getting that boring now even your fellow english are getting fed up with it.



Your gov must be worried about how much of a counter effect these jingoistic celebrations are having with most folk switching off now. England spent more time at war with scotland and more folk died over those 1300 years , yet you dont celebrate that cause it isnt convenient to mention it , but we are told to relentlessly celebrate two periods in the early to mid twentieth century where you were at war with the germans cause it was a good and just war?

I cannae believe a man of your intelligence actually belives that horshit , and more to the point you contantly ignore the evidence that shows britain tried to appease  the evil fascists for years right up till their hands were forced , even to the extent allowing hitler to annex land in europe with an anglo saxon nod and a wink.Until it became convenient to flag up his faults when it suited later.



So what cromwell , thats all in the past , and the point is twofold as i keep repeating.



1. most of that generation are deid , and the rest of us dont remember it.



2. you government tries to glorify it every feckin year for the last (at least) 6 years if no longer.



We arent interested in your brit nat flag waving shite.



Feck britain , i dont remeber my paternal grandpa fighting for britian. I remember him getting killed in someones war , and the chain of events it caused on my fathers side of the family.



This is 2020 now , time to move on.

I don't want or need a warm cuddly glow thanks

or heard about firsthand

as you said to me why did you go round and ask everyone

time to move on.

Well you move on then,Byee! :hattip  :-P  :-P  :-P

[Borg Refinery]

Oh no! Nalaar will be along shortly with Schrodinger's VE 75 day. The one where it's OK to remember even when you weren't born at the same time as remembering because the Nazis are evil and we need to remember that in case we forget

 ::



Okay, my point is that Fascism is evil and cromwell's right to say we should not forget how evil it is nor the sacrifices of everyone else, which thomas has also said, but the anti jingoistic and historical stuff is absolutely correct at the same time.



We can't forget that we helped bankrupt Germany at the league of nations after WWI and helped lay down the conditions that led to Hitler taking power also. But that's another really long historical post for another day....

[Thomas]

Oh no! Nalaar will be along shortly with Schrodinger's VE 75 day. The one where it's OK to remember even when you weren't born at the same time as remembering because the Nazis are evil and we need to remember that in case we forget

https://media.vanityfair.com/photos/5a2c40d0cbb3bf329792340b/master/w_2560%2Cc_limit/Adolf-Hitler-Duke-and-Duchess-of-Windsor.jpg">



Mustnt forget that well known nazi friend , edward the 8th. What was it he said about adolf ?, "hes not a bad chap".



Chamberlain spent years kissing his arse   , but all thats forgotten now as it was a war about good versus evil and just.

[Thomas]

What has the attitude of the elite got to do with it being a peoples war

How do you know it was a people war? Did you go around asking everyone ?



The "people" were sheep who were kept out of things when it suited the elite , and then sent into battle when the elites opinions changed.



All the while atrocities were being carried out which most folk either dismissed as anti hun propaganda or didnt know about. Its only a peoples war in your mind mate to give you some warm cuddly gow inside , and tells me everything i need to know .

and yeah they maybe were reluctant to go but most knew it had to be done and determined if they returned they'd see changes and in ways they did.

Can you prove this? Most folk knew what had to be done and for why?



I could give you loads of reasons i have either read or heard about firsthand why people fought in that war , and the idea most were somehow joining up to fight in some just war of good verses evil really is nonsense cromwell.

I don't really give a stuff that you,Jog,Barry or anyone else disagrees,fascism was and is an evil and if for no other reason it should be remembered in order that it isn't repeated.

The british condoned fascism in nazi germany for years and did nothing about it.........

When the Soviets uncovered the first death camp at Maidanak in eastern Poland in late 1944, the US and UK press refused to publish reports of ovens and human ashes used as fertiliser.

[/b]



 Further as one of the articles made the point , you tell us about the noble british fighting fascism and liberating europe from nazi tyranny , but you forget to mention the british were fighting in the far east to return countries like burma to british rule.



Bet the burmese couldnt give a feck wether the german , japanese or british fascists were in control , they just wanted you all out their land.

Much of that is now largely forgotten along with the fact that while in Europe British soldiers fought to liberate countries, in Asia their main role was to return Burma, Malaya and Singapore to British rule.

[/b]

I don't really give a stuff that you,

I dont really give a stuff what you believe either cromwell , what i object to is having this rule brittannia member we used to have an empire once shite stuffed down our throats every year and the latest world war jingoistic horshit  on how england won the war with a little bit of help from russia and america .

Its getting that boring now even your fellow english are getting fed up with it.



Your gov must be worried about how much of a counter effect these jingoistic celebrations are having with most folk switching off now. England spent more time at war with scotland and more folk died over those 1300 years , yet you dont celebrate that cause it isnt convenient to mention it , but we are told to relentlessly celebrate two periods in the early to mid twentieth century where you were at war with the germans cause it was a good and just war?

I cannae believe a man of your intelligence actually belives that horshit , and more to the point you contantly ignore the evidence that shows britain tried to appease  the evil fascists for years right up till their hands were forced , even to the extent allowing hitler to annex land in europe with an anglo saxon nod and a wink.Until it became convenient to flag up his faults when it suited later.

When I started worked and served my time learning my work most of the people I worked with or for were of the war time generation,.didn't glorify it but saw and perhaps did some awful things,what they related to me bears little resemblance to what you posted.

So what cromwell , thats all in the past , and the point is twofold as i keep repeating.



1. most of that generation are deid , and the rest of us dont remember it.



2. you government tries to glorify it every feckin year for the last (at least) 6 years if no longer.



We arent interested in your brit nat flag waving shite.



Feck britain , i dont remeber my paternal grandpa fighting for britian. I remember him getting killed in someones war , and the chain of events it caused on my fathers side of the family.



This is 2020 now , time to move on.

[Barry]

Oh no! Nalaar will be along shortly with Schrodinger's VE 75 day. The one where it's OK to remember even when you weren't born at the same time as remembering because the Nazis are evil and we need to remember that in case we forget

[Borg Refinery]

Everything Thomas said is true, but IMHO cromwell is also correct. I don't find the two things in conflict but I suppose I'll get a bollocking for saying that both can be true at the same time and for not 'picking a side'.

[cromwell]

Couldnt disagree with you anymore here cromwell.



A peoples war? Just?



Deppity dawg is normally the first person to tell anyone that wars are never about being "just" , or good verses evil. Just wars and good v evil is nothing  but empty horse manure from popular culture.



If you actually scratch the surface of the second world war and research into it , you will see it was never aboput being a "just" war. The last good book i read on it was about the decade leading up to the second world war , called appeasing hitler. Very few of the ordinary "english people" new anything about what was going on in nazi germany , but the british elite did , and repeatedly turned a blind eye until their hand was forced. Whats just about that?



That book also  makes the point regarding the persecution of the jews that many of the same british elite were anti semitic themselves , and certainly werent crying any tears over their persecution.



I spent many a time talking to my old maternal grandpa who served around the mediteranean , and rather than the horsehit popular culture likes to portray of young men valiantly marching off to do their duty in some so called "just" war , the stories he told me were far different , along with much of what i have read. More like young men being dragged off kicking and screaming in terror to fight in some war of which they knew next to little about.



Its funny cromwell , i said this to my wife the other day , when the BBC pull out the latest voice of the veterans of world war two , i said to her they must be running out of these auld folk now. If you were a twenty year old in 1945 , you would be 95 today , and i doubt anyone under 80 even remembers the feckin war.



I dont need some government/ media inspired "celebration" to sit and quietly remember many in my family who fought and died in the war . I do it all the time , and my auld grandpas war medals sit in my room.



I agree with barry , its time to put this all to bed now ffs. The war ended 75 years ago , and is pretty much beyond the memory of most of those living today.



We seem to have been in some never ending feckin cycle for the last 6 years at least of being told to "celebrate" something to do with the first or second world war , and its getting silly now. I remember camerons government announcing back in 2014 the celebrations of the start of world war one.



Time to put this to bed and into the history books for good i think.

What has the attitude of the elite got to do with it being a peoples war,and yeah they maybe were reluctant to go but most knew  it had to be done and determined if they returned they'd see changes and in ways they did.



I don't really give a stuff that you,Jog,Barry or anyone else disagrees,fascism was and is an evil and if for no other reason it should be remembered in order that it isn't repeated.



When I started worked and served my time learning my work most of the people I worked with or for were of the war time generation,.didn't glorify it but saw and perhaps did some awful things,what they related to me bears little resemblance to what you posted.

[Thomas]

Well that's OK John I can cope with being in the minority, any way  Churchills speech said it all for me



Yes I know we have no empire now and Churchill like us all had his failings,that in bold is what is important and should be remembered..... this country spent it's best in two world wars,the latter a consequence of the former but was it all worth it......Yes IMO.

Its allright though casting up parts of churchills speeches  all these years on  , which have been immortalised into popular brit nat fantasy , but the fact of the matter was the guy was seen as a bumbling fool who was responsible for the disaster at gallipoli , of which the aussies and kiwis still remember today.



The man was a cant , and he owes as much of his reputation as some great war leader to the twenty miles of water at dover , and the 27 million russian dead on the eastern front which accounted for 80% of nazi germanys military deaths , than any great leadership qualities.

VE Day is also often seen as the end of the Second World War which it was not. While London and New York partied, the Americans were suffering their worst casualties of the Pacific War on Okinawa and looked upon the prospect of an invasion of mainland Japan with horror. General MacArthur warned the US Defense Secretary, Stimson, that US casualties would be around a million in such an undertaking.[2] For the soldiers who ended the war in Germany or Italy, VE Day was a welcome, but apparently temporary respite. Many faced being shipped to Asia or the Pacific to finish off Japan and a slogan among British troops was 'Burma looms ahead'.[3]



In popular culture the war is seen as straight forward battle between good and evil. The liberation of the camps and the salvation of Europe's Jews from genocide are now seen as reasons for fighting, but these are modern reconstructions. Elements of the UK press occasionally reported on the genocide of Jews (a term not invented until after the war) but no one seemed particularly interested in reading about it.[4] When the Soviets uncovered the first death camp at Maidanak in eastern Poland in late 1944, the US and UK press refused to publish reports of ovens and human ashes used as fertiliser. The stories seemed too fantastic to be credible and were dismissed as Soviet propaganda.[5] As a result, the Soviets kept quiet about what they found at Auschwitz-Birkenau in January 1945 until after Germany's defeat by which time, British and American troops had discovered the charnel houses of Bergen-Belsen and Dachau for themselves.[6] Churchill and Roosevelt knew full well about Hitler's attempts to exterminate European Jewry but downplayed it because they were afraid of encouraging the widespread anti-Semitism in their own societies

[/b]

My experience of interviewing British war veterans at the turn of the century indicated they thought Hitler was a menace who had to be removed, but the enemy was German militarism, not Nazisim per se. The wilder stories about German atrocities were dismissed as the type of 'brutal Hun' propaganda their fathers had been fed in the Great War and they were deeply sceptical of what they were told about their enemies. The American public were more interested in the Pacific which was seen as a war of revenge for Pearl Harbour, while the conflict in Europe was regarded as 'Roosevelt's War'. Eisenhower became so frustrated about the lack of animosity GIs showed towards their German enemies he insisted on them being shown around concentration camps. One young soldier, visibly sickened by the sight of naked, emaciated corpses stacked like cordwood, was asked by his Supreme Commander, 'Still having trouble hating them?'[8]



Much of that is now largely forgotten along with the fact that while in Europe British soldiers fought to liberate countries, in Asia their main role was to return Burma, Malaya and Singapore to British rule. Britain can be rightly proud of its role in the defeat of Germany and Japan but that doesn't explain the current nostalgia and downright jingoism for a war which is outside the memory for anyone under eighty. Unfortunately, the Second World War has become mythologised much as the First World has been. The 'Blitz spirit' is constantly evoked and the Queen even quoted 'We'll meet again', a popular ballad from the war, in her recent Coronavirus address. At least she actually served in the conflict.

[/b]





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