Cummings Breaks the Rules.

[BeElBeeBub]

Yes. Another good one is "they may not understand maths...."



How far is your shed from from Adis Ababa btw ? In millimetres please  ::

the understanding of maths is not class dependent

[papasmurf]

Even if this government pissed on my mothers grave, I'd still rather have this one than one led by Corbyn. So there was no mistake - there was a choice between a clown leading a self interest party who would sort out the log jam that British politics had hit. And a party which abandoned its core support here in the North East 20 years ago, and elected a nasty, deluded old **** as its leader, who appointed an even nastier sidekick as his chancellor.



It was a no contest.

The Tsunami of propaganda and lies about Corbyn from the media/press was shameful,  That so many people were fooled into voting to have someone as unsuitable for public office as Bojo The Clown who it appears cannot govern without a very nasty bastard like Dominic Cummings  is beyond frightening.

[DeppityDawg]

Have you realised the gravity of your mistake yet?

Even if this government pissed on my mothers grave, I'd still rather have this one than one led by Corbyn. So there was no mistake - there was a choice between a clown leading a self interest party who would sort out the log jam that British politics had hit. And a party which abandoned its core support here in the North East 20 years ago, and elected a nasty, deluded old **** as its leader, who appointed an even nastier sidekick as his chancellor.



It was a no contest.

[papasmurf]

. And you know the reason why I voted for the conservatives for the one and only time in my life last December, because I've written it on here half a dozen times.

Have you realised the gravity of your mistake yet?

[DeppityDawg]

You now appear to be implying (maybe I'm misunderstanding you again) that it's about money and wealth.  Are you revising your prior definition, or are you saying that everyone with more money by definition thinks they are superior to everyone with less money.

No Javert, I'm implying nothing of the sort. I said it was irrelevant the way people defined their elitism or superiority. Wealth, privilege/education were examples. Is saying "there are those who believe [their wealth] makes them superior" the same as saying "all [wealthy] people think they are superior"? Of course it isn't. Its baffling how I can write something and you completely change its meaning, time and time again.

So if someone said,

"I may have more money and a bigger house than you, but I believe you are an equal human being to myself and have equal human rights", are they just talking rubbish?

Of course not. Who suggested such a statement would be rubbish? If on the other hand they chose not to mix with people less wealthy than themselves, or discouraged their children from mixing with theirs, did not want their children to attend the same schools as theirs, or expected certain privileges which did not apply to others not in their position, what would that be? I've met plenty of wealthy people who aren't stuck up their own arse.

There are lots of people who define themselves as working class who see themselves as superior because they've lived a proper, rough and ready, life which has prepared them better for the "real world".  They detest the middle and upper classes as people who were born with a silver spoon etc etc.

 ::  ::  ::



No the upper classes are generally fine.

It's my opening opinion (no doubt disputed by some)  that in every walk of life you will find some characters who consider themselves better than others, and that it's not solely, or even mainly, based on money.

That was mine too. That "across the political spectrum" you will find those who consider themselves "better", or "more suited to lead", or "more qualified to judge the truth" and so on. Not that you read other peoples posts properly (if at all), before you go on to post a reply to a whole different set of conclusions you made up yourself.

Also - who do you think should be running the government, and if you you don't want it run by Elites, why did you vote for them?

The country should be run by which party is democratically elected, Javert - just as referendums are decided. Its what democracy is all about. And you know the reason why I voted for the conservatives for the one and only time in my life last December, because I've written it on here half a dozen times.

[papasmurf]

I think Cummings also went to Eton didn't he?  I'm sure someone will correct me if not?

He was educated at Durham School and Exeter College.

[Javert]

Under what measure do these "working class people who claim to be better" define themselves as better? I'm not aware of a political party in the UK defined by a "working class" anything, never mind an elitist one? Could you enlighten me as to who these people are?



Typically you reframe the argument to suit something that wasn't said, but I guess I'm just used to that by now. Who said anything about anyone giving anyone else money? Where did that come from? Once upon a time in this country, wealth and class defined privilege - there were (and still are) those who believe that because they are from wealthy families (good breeding dontcha know), they are "better" than others who aren't. There are also these days more and more people who consider themselves superior to others because of their "education's" or that they have an inbuilt intelligence that makes them superior. This is simply an extension of wealth and privilege, since the best education are usually paid for. I've seen several posters on this forum (especially during Brexit) suggest that those who voted for it were less "intelligent" and the inference that they themselves belonged to a more enlightened political mindset. Ring any bells?



I agree that much of Boris Johnsons government is formed.of elitists. He was an Eton boy wasn't he? I don't know much about Cummings past, but his behaviour is by all rational definition elitism. My point was that "elitists" exist across the political spectrum. I've no more desire to be governed by the middle class elitists of the liberal left than I have to be governed by old fashioned wealth elitists of the centre right, thanks.

I think Cummings also went to Eton didn't he?  I'm sure someone will correct me if not?



What I'm trying to see is to confirm how you define Elitism.  You originaly stated a definition based on a feeling of superiority to others.



You now appear to be implying (maybe I'm misunderstanding you again) that it's about money and wealth.  Are you revising your prior definition, or are you saying that everyone with more money by definition thinks they are superior to everyone with less money.



So if someone said,

"I may have more money and a bigger house than you, but I believe you are an equal human being to myself and have equal human rights", are they just talking rubbish?



I do agree with you that there are lots of people who think they are superior to others, but we also shouldn't confuse someone being better at particular tasks, to thinking that they are innately superior in every way.



There are lots of people who define themselves as working class who see themselves as superior because they've lived a proper, rough and ready, life which has prepared them better for the "real world".  They detest the middle and upper classes as people who were born with a silver spoon etc etc.



It's my opening opinion (no doubt disputed by some)  that in every walk of life you will find some characters who consider themselves better than others, and that it's not solely, or even mainly, based on money.



Also - who do you think should be running the government, and if you you don't want it run by Elites, why did you vote for them?

[Borg Refinery]

Even by Marxist definitions that's bog.



It's lumpen proles, proles, petit bourgeois, & bourgeois.



All of which is rubbish by the way, as "bourgeois" can be stand up people just like "lumpens", or "proles" or any of them. And Marx & Engels were bourgy's.



The idea that only working class people are any good, or only middle class people are qualified to have an opinion, or any variation on any of that is a feckin joke that belongs to the last century.

[patman post]

The environment seems to be the predominant political issue among younger people. Especially now, the environment can be linked to almost every political issue from meat production to diesel engines.



To a lot of young people and some older ones too, it comes into the "no brainer" category, i.e. . . .

Do you want to live . . .

a) in a cleaner, healthier and more sustainable society?

b) in a dirtier, less healthy and less sustainable society?

All that's true. But, personally, I object to being mown-down or emergency-stopped by electric bikes, scooters, blades and segways, on the pedestrian way or suddenly turning in front of vehicles because the riders think they can flout the rules because they're a living part of the Green & Cleaner Environment Movement...

[B0ycey]

Don't get bogged down on this. There are only two classes. The proletariat and the bourgeois. The bourgeois are the elite as they have the means to make up the rules. Basically the can do "A Cummings".

[DeppityDawg]

Class is used as a dividing line by all "classes"



It is used as a method to "other" people.



"See them, they're not like us because...."



"...they work with their hands"

"...they have never worked a manual job"

"...they have never been to the opera"

"...they went to a private school"

"...they went to a state school"

"...they have a degree"

"...they don't have a degree"



frankly, it's bollocks.

Yes. Another good one is "they may not understand maths...."



How far is your shed from from Adis Ababa btw ? In millimetres please  ::

[BeElBeeBub]

Class is used as a dividing line by all "classes"



It is used as a method to "other" people.



"See them, they're not like us because...."



"...they work with their hands"

"...they have never worked a manual job"

"...they have never been to the opera"

"...they went to a private school"

"...they went to a state school"

"...they have a degree"

"...they don't have a degree"



frankly, it's bollocks.

[DeppityDawg]

If that's your definition of elitists, then yes of course, but they also exist the opposite way around - under your definition, there are certainly many working class people who are elitist because they think they are better than richer people.



The question is, do you think that everyone who has a fair amount of money is by definition an Elitist?  Does the fact that someone has a lot more money than you automatically mean they think they are better than you by definition, unless they give all their money to you?  If not, then how do you know which ones are the Elitists?



I would say that someone who decides that the rules that everyone else has been told to follow don't apply to them, and then uses their connections to literally change the rules in front of our eyes in order to get out of it, is most certainly an Elitist under your definition, yet that same person has won several major elections on the back of claiming that he is one of the common people.  



This is why it's so damaging - the whole thing about the current government was that they were getting rid of the Elites and supporting the good old "ordinary people".  The whole story about Cummings exposes the fact that you couldn't find a more Elite person if you tried, and it's the same with Johnson as well.  Heck - even some of Johnson's school reports from Eton that are in the public domain complain about him thinking that he is above the rules and they shouldn't apply to him.  This is the most Elite school in the country, complaining that Johnson their pupil thinks he is better than everyone else.  Anyway - you voted him in I guess so it's your problem.



Cummings is going nowhere for now, but he has used up a lot of hit points and he is in the last chance saloon.



My guess is that before last week, about 50-52% of people in the UK thought Cummings was an arrogant and dangerous man.  I would suspect it's now more like 60-70%.  Of course there will still be large numbers of people who defend him for various reasons, not least because he is the personification of their single goal political identity - I do wonder what those people will do once no deal Brexit is finally completed as their entire reason for being interested in politics will disappear.

Under what measure do these "working class people who claim to be better" define themselves as better? I'm not aware of a political party in the UK defined by a "working class" anything, never mind an elitist one? Could you enlighten me as to who these people are?



Typically you reframe the argument to suit something that wasn't said, but I guess I'm just used to that by now. Who said anything about anyone giving anyone else money? Where did that come from? Once upon a time in this country, wealth and class defined privilege - there were (and still are) those who believe that because they are from wealthy families (good breeding dontcha know), they are "better" than others who aren't. There are also these days more and more people who consider themselves superior to others because of their "education's" or that they have an inbuilt intelligence that makes them superior. This is simply an extension of wealth and privilege, since the best education are usually paid for. I've seen several posters on this forum (especially during Brexit) suggest that those who voted for it were less "intelligent" and the inference that they themselves belonged to a more enlightened political mindset. Ring any bells?



I agree that much of Boris Johnsons government is formed.of elitists. He was an Eton boy wasn't he? I don't know much about Cummings past, but his behaviour is by all rational definition elitism. My point was that "elitists" exist across the political spectrum. I've no more desire to be governed by the middle class elitists of the liberal left than I have to be governed by old fashioned wealth elitists of the centre right, thanks.

[patman post]

I find it incredible that once again every news channel is still wall to wall Cummings. They must be really desperate. This has once again become a power struggle and more fool the public for encouraging it. The PM should have the last word. Until the next election that's it. If Cummings goes now what does it prove? That Government is by the masses not those elected. If this happens now it will be repeated ad nauseum leaving us poorer as a nation and a democracy.

Judging by the various phone-ins I've actually tuned in to, the listening public are also anxious to get their opinions heard. By my non-scientific reckoning only around 25% profess to be either bored with the story or support Cumming's (not necessarily what he did, but because they think he's being hounded). Around three-quarters of callers, texters and emailers question his reasoning and excuses, and the effect this is having on the government's pandemic strategy.

I didn't think he'd go when the story broke, and I thought scheduling a press conference at No10 backed that up. Then I saw the conference and thought it unconvincing and unhelpful — though not crippling. Johnson's support yesterday evening seemed to shore up Cummings.

But Cummings is still the story!!!

The longer this goes on, the more support for Cummings (and Johnson) will ebb away.

Johnson is also losing personal authority and trust — what can he do to stop the slide? I'd say, give it two weeks and we'll know one way or the other...

[Javert]

Leaving aside the Cummings fiasco for a moment, you seem happy to acknowledge the existence of uncaring millionaires in their mansions (stereotype?) but seem to get tetchy about the existence of liberal elitists?



Would it not be fair to say that elitists exist across the spectrum, and Cummings is simply a market capitalist example? Elitists are.people who believe they are better than others. Whether they measure that in terms of their wealth, social postioning or religious beliefs, or their belief in the superiority of their own or peer groups education and intelligence is irrelevant.

If that's your definition of elitists, then yes of course, but they also exist the opposite way around - under your definition, there are certainly many working class people who are elitist because they think they are better than richer people.



The question is, do you think that everyone who has a fair amount of money is by definition an Elitist?  Does the fact that someone has a lot more money than you automatically mean they think they are better than you by definition, unless they give all their money to you?  If not, then how do you know which ones are the Elitists?



I would say that someone who decides that the rules that everyone else has been told to follow don't apply to them, and then uses their connections to literally change the rules in front of our eyes in order to get out of it, is most certainly an Elitist under your definition, yet that same person has won several major elections on the back of claiming that he is one of the common people.  



This is why it's so damaging - the whole thing about the current government was that they were getting rid of the Elites and supporting the good old "ordinary people".  The whole story about Cummings exposes the fact that you couldn't find a more Elite person if you tried, and it's the same with Johnson as well.  Heck - even some of Johnson's school reports from Eton that are in the public domain complain about him thinking that he is above the rules and they shouldn't apply to him.  This is the most Elite school in the country, complaining that Johnson their pupil thinks he is better than everyone else.  Anyway - you voted him in I guess so it's your problem.



Cummings is going nowhere for now, but he has used up a lot of hit points and he is in the last chance saloon.



My guess is that before last week, about 50-52% of people in the UK thought Cummings was an arrogant and dangerous man.  I would suspect it's now more like 60-70%.  Of course there will still be large numbers of people who defend him for various reasons, not least because he is the personification of their single goal political identity - I do wonder what those people will do once no deal Brexit is finally completed as their entire reason for being interested in politics will disappear.