General Brexit discussion thread

[Thomas]

That's pretty much what I'm getting at.



I don't support any of their BS and I know quite a few leavers, remainers and others who simply won't vote because of that.



Fair play to them.

 ::



jesus dynamis , are you all right mate?



We have had suicide bombers , now we have a suicide voter threatening to tear up his ballot paper in disgust at the tories potentially winning the GE and taking the yookay oot the eu.



Im sure mr johnson and the rest of parliament will give your spoilt ballot paper all the due care and consideration it deserves in that split second before dismissing it , laughing and then chucking it in the bin.



Its alright pal , i will go out and vote and have my say along wae everyone else while you have a wee sulk. :thup:

[Thomas]

Thommy:

These posts are getting a bit too long to easily reply to now on a phone, too many points are being repeated across the post and much of it has descended into one-liner drook.



Suffice to say, you can believe whatever you want and are entitled to your opinion. You've refuted the sq root of zilch.

:hattip  ::



You havent refuted anything either. just made endless empty  claims and bemoaned the end of the world is nigh.

I know my mind as do much of the electorate - and they are sick of voters who want to see others 'spited', voting out of spite n envy or some hatred is always bad news and can't be contemplated.

I will take this as a high compliment . Im amused you have such a high opinion of me  that you think voters hang on my every word , but really dynamis im just an ordinary guy who knows what he wants.



I dont want to see anyone spited.



I have made endless posts saying i admire the english people for standing up to the bullshit you and your ilk tried to pull on them , and i also many time said i wish england all the best , and truly believe they can make a go of brexit , so much so i have more faith in your country than you do.



You on the other hand constantly talk your country down  like a true red labour supporter , show nothing but envy for the tories , constantly make spitefull comments about them and mr johnson , and yet you try and deflect all this nastiness of yours onto me?



You even had the cheek to try and insinuate brexit was somehow my fault as though i went around 55 miilion english over  50 000 square miles of england holding a gun to the majority head and forcing them to vote brexit.



Sometimes mate you need to hold your hands up and admit you made a cant of the brexit argument , accept your medicine and move on.



Not blame others.

You really shouldn't believe everything you are told re anti-EU propaganda

i dont. Thats why i  , and two thirds of my country voted to remain , and are fighting for scotland to remain.



I accept the democratic vote of the people of england however to leave unlike you.

and silliness about the common commerce policy. It's going to take all eternity to dig for the right links; as it's obscure knowledge, but you should really do more research before repeating stuff you don't fully get.

i have done plenty of research ,discussed the eu and trade etc over the last four years ,  and at least i can provide links unlike you  , and a valid argument.



You cant convince me on this small interwebby forum , never mind the english electorate who voted democratically to leave the eu and not accept FOM , CU or ECJ jurisdiction , so in short , your arguments are easily dismissed and hold no water.



If you feel england has a current trade deal , it has negotiated , free of eu interference , eu rules and  jurisdiction , then please be my guest and post a link telling us what that is.



Its nothing more than labour party bullshit .No one likes a liar , which is why your party has spent 9 years in the wilderness and counting , are polling fourth in scotland , and currently reside ten point s behind the tories for westminster.



Thats a weak and weary tory government worn out by years of infighting over brexit , a leader you constantly ridicule as unfit to be prime minister  , yet labour are ten points behind them. I think this tells us something about your judgement.

Good luck with the indy stuff (sincerely) and thanks for your cheery disposition and all-round delightfulness! Namaste to you too.

Thanks you so kindly old bean. Im always cheery after reading one of your suicidal posts.



Tells me labour are defeated before you have even begun. :hattip

[Borg Refinery]

Thommy:

These posts are getting a bit too long to easily reply to now on a phone, too many points are being repeated across the post and much of it has descended into one-liner drook.



Suffice to say, you can believe whatever you want and are entitled to your opinion. You've refuted the sq root of zilch.



I know my mind as do much of the electorate - and they are sick of voters who want to see others 'spited', voting out of spite n envy or some hatred is always bad news and can't be contemplated.



You really shouldn't believe everything you are told re anti-EU propaganda and silliness about the common commerce policy. It's going to take all eternity to dig for the right links; as it's obscure knowledge, but you should really do more research before repeating stuff you don't fully get.



Good luck with the indy stuff (sincerely) and thanks for your cheery disposition and all-round delightfulness! Namaste to you too.

[Borg Refinery]

what we believe in

Not the madness that is rife in politics,that is for sure.

That's pretty much what I'm getting at.



I don't support any of their BS and I know quite a few leavers, remainers and others who simply won't vote because of that.



Fair play to them.

[Borg Refinery]

I think that abstention suits Labour's position currently, so you are well suited. Because as far as Brexit is concerned, Labour don't know their fence sitting rear ends from their fiddler's elbows.

Tbh, that's not true, they're pretty clear on this.



And I am clear too, if you read the post, the clear inference is "there's no good solution; but the anti-democratic no deal Brexit is the least democratic of all outcomes" which is plainly true.



What's also plainly true is that Fromage, Bozo et al can't make up their minds about a single thing re Brexit...or anything else, look at how they are infighting. All those accusations simply reflect back...



As for Tommy's post, he seems to have this mistaken idea that the English are democratic and know their minds...wrong, as proven by the recent polls since Brexit where the majority now support remain.

[papasmurf]

I think that abstention suits Labour's position currently, so you are well suited. Because as far as Brexit is concerned, Labour don't know their fence sitting rear ends from their fiddler's elbows.

Actually Labour has been very clear on the subject, that the media/press are shy about reporting it is probably why you don't know:-



https://i0.wp.com/voxpoliticalonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/191108-Labour-Brexit-policy.jpg?ssl=1">

[Barry]

Agreed

But the problem is, I don't really agree with Lab's position either so there's no reason to keep bringing this up.

Not my position, none of that is my position.

In 2016 I didn't vote for remain, in fact I abstained from it because the outright lies, deception and law-breaking on both sides is a matter of public record.

I think that abstention suits Labour's position currently, so you are well suited. Because as far as Brexit is concerned, Labour don't know their fence sitting rear ends from their fiddler's elbows.

[Sheepy]

what we believe in

Not the madness that is rife in politics,that is for sure.

[Thomas]

Clearly..

Good glad you accept that no deal is then the logical outcome .Moving on........

Who cares what the remain side said?

I do .Its important to remember what both sides said rather than just cherry picking the bits to suit your arguments.

Fine but that still returns to the leace campaign point.

what we want all the benefits of the single market , just none of the cons , and if the eu dont agree , then we leave on no deal? 8-)

Yeah Bojo's deal which is worse than May's cos they'e desperate now.



Farage doesn't back it does he? Neither do loads of Tory brexiters... with a brain.

What are you talking about now?



Johnsons WA is the only WA to receive the backing of the commons  and pass since we voted in 2016. The legislation was then paused becasue johnson couldnt get approval for the timetable he wanted in getting it done.



May couldnt get approval of her deal not once despite trying numerous times.



I would say that shows johnsons deal is better than mays due to the fact it got parliaments approval. I dont support it , but i also acknowledge he got support for it in your parliament.Why cant you?

False dichotomy.

ok so tell us how you get brexit done , respect the vote of the people , while acknowledging their red lines? If their are other options mutually acceptable to the public lets hear them?

Like Bojo undemocratically forcing a revote multi times?



Or proroguing parliament?



Or all the other BS he's pulled?



And you have the nerve to say others are undemocratic?

When labour actually win something , like an election or referendum , then they can lecture us what choices we have.



You might not agree with johnsons stance , or tactics ,but he won a referendum , you didnt ,  so can set the agenda of what leaving means.



Further if he wins this election as predicted , you wont even have the ability to block him in parliament if he wins a majority.



So yes i say labour are anti democratic losers who have carped from the sidelines pathetically for the last 9 years ,especially over brexit.



What was it a remainer told me when parliament blocked brexit time and again ....? Parliament cannot be anti democratic , as it sets the rules and lays the playing field , and no one can bind it?



So when johnson follows that advice , remainers start bleating he is anti democratic? ::



I would say the tories have played labour hook line and sinker. Just like they shafted you in scotland in 2014 by doing their dirty work.

Agreed but still, the public were misled - even you agree with me on this.

i said the public were misled by leave and remain , further , with the strength of feeling against the eu , you dont know that they still wouldnt have voted to leave the eu even if they hadnt been misled. So its a false argument.



England does not want to share power in a supra national entity like the eu , said it for years.

That's why there is IMHO no proper democratic solution to this.

of course there is.......its called leaving the eu , leaving the CU , ending FOM , and ending ECJ jurisdiction over england .



You might not like it , but in a democracy the majority will prevails , and this is what brexiters voted for in england by 54%.Not just once in a referendum , but in three elections in 4 years.



You put forward your argument even if you didnt vote , which is pathetic ,and you lost miserably.



Its like playing football , and running home with the ball in a bad mood because a better team turns up who you know will beat you , but not even starting the game  , while bleating for days afterwards how unfair it is.



No one likes a bad loser.

But he is worse than useless, that is my only gripe with him - other than that, I've no issue. He is a terrible negotiator..

He seems a formidable opponent to me.



Underestimating an opponent is a fatal error labour and their lackeys always make. I remember when they laughed at the snp , they arent laughing now.

There is no 'good' solution to this mess.

aye there is. If i was an english remainer , i would take my medicine , accept democracy , then once brexit was done , start recampaigning to rejoin.



Its the only way , accept democracy , then you can reclaim the moral high ground and start arguing your position again. Until then , you are being dismissed by everyone as anti democratic bad losers who wont be taken seriously outside of your own pathetic jerk circles.

You can chuck whatever accusations you like my way, but I knew everythung would go to sh*t in 2016 during the ref; why do you think I abstained?

To me its called cowardice.



Even now , had you chosen to argue running away to fight another day , you cant even reclaim the moral high ground , but instead continue to bleat from the sidelines like a coward instead of looking your opponents in the eye and arguing what you truly want..........no brexit.

No I don't support the Brit remainers either. And I don't think anything either side (in England) has done is even remotely acceptable in any way.

not my problem. I wish england all the best whatever they decide , i just want you to stop interfering in my country.

Sorry but we already have done individual FTAs while in the EU.



100% untrue.

What?

If Britain votes to leave the EU, the country will face some difficult decisions on 24th June. None will be more important than determining the principles behind the UK's new national external trade policy.



It will have to do this with limited policy capability, given that the UK has not conducted any trade negotiations of its own for forty years

[/b]



https://portland-communications.com/publications/can-the-uk-secure-free-trade-outside-the-eu/">https://portland-communications.com/pub ... de-the-eu/">https://portland-communications.com/publications/can-the-uk-secure-free-trade-outside-the-eu/

As a member of the EU, the UK currently participates in around 40 free trade agreements with over 70 countries. These free trade agreements cover a wide variety of relationships, including:

[/b]



https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/existing-free-trade-agreements-if-theres-no-brexit-deal/existing-free-trade-agreements-if-theres-no-brexit-deal">https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... rexit-deal">https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/existing-free-trade-agreements-if-theres-no-brexit-deal/existing-free-trade-agreements-if-theres-no-brexit-deal



You will have to explain with links what you are talking about.......every single trade deal the uk has on its books is subject to eu rules regulations and isnt what brexiters would class as a free trade deal.



?The floor is yours....

And I agree it's intolerable to the majority Brexit voting public.

good we agree...

I'm not saying there are ANY democratic or workable solutions anymore - they have vanished.



That is the honest truth.

Well in your opinion. I have stated my opinion of the way forward many times , you dont have to accept it , but as a loser , you wont have much choice , especially if johnson wins the election.

What happens in chess if neither side can bring about their desired outcome? A draw.



Both sides IMHO need to accept that we have reached a 'draw' and neither side will benefit from any of the outcomes - but it's us Brits who have failed to negotiate most of all.

What desperate rubbish this is ?  :roll:  You compare the brexit malarkey with a chess analogy?



This isnt a draw , far from it.



You lost your queen in the opening gambit in 2016 when you lost the referendum , you have been trying to delay the game as much as possible since , while losing pieces one by one , till all you have left is a few pawns defending your king.



This isnt headed for a draw , what utter delusion. It looks to me checkmate in just over 4 weeks time , but as ever we need to wait and see.

No, not even slightly right.



Abstention & spoilt ballots are recognized and valid tactics that have changed elections & referenda around the world. The referendum as you conceded was a sham - have the courage of your own convictions and admit that.



I'm vindicated - every solution to this impasse is anti-democratic and negative and tramples on the will of the people in one way or another. I thought this might happen in 2016.... who was right? Me.

You do what you please  , me?



I prefer to fight. you go out and spoil your ballot mate , wave a few placards about if it makes you feel better.



As for being right? In what alternate universe were you right?



The english public want out the eu , and are prepared to accept collateral damage in the process , including this shitty union.



You cant even face that never mind be right about referndums or anyhting else.You totally misjudged the strength of feeling in your own country to the eu , and now cant face it or accept it.



Theres no i in denial dynamis...... :roll:

Nope I don't expect them to, I know they won't accept any result that favours any of the sides in this impasse. There's no good solution is there?

whats this slash and burn as you retreat?



Of course the solution is there , brexit , hard brexit if need be , but brexit and honour the referendum result you lost and your side has refused to accept anti democratically for three years and counting. Boris might be doing you a favour putting you out of your misery.

Um you're in Scotland, I'm in England.

And?



We scots hopefully will vote snp , the english vote tory , and the anti democratic english remainers can sit in a corner  , sulk and spoil their ballot paper.



Everyone else will take your silence as compliance.........

Lol...yes he was in charge. What the heck are you on about..

Well britain stronger in europe for example was headed by stuart rose and will straw. there were many groups for remain , and many leaders cross party.



The idea it was all camerons failure is rubbish.

Good for you..

thank you. :thup:

They are fools, they voted against scot indyref and voted for Brexit based on lies.

wow your arrogance shines through.



people voted many ways for many reasons we later found out in scotland post 2014 , and foolishness wasnt one of them. Neither was foolishenss the reason people voted brexit , in fact i believe the english people showed great courage , and i salute them.

As super hans says "don't trust people jez, people voted for the nazis".

ah godwins law.............

I'm no better than anyone else, yet others' self-sabotage means that yes I'll criticise their silly positions til the cows come home..end of.

do it quietly in the corner while wiping your tears then while the rest of us go about our lives and fight for what we believe  in.

[Borg Refinery]

That is the point though , they didnt have to mention it, as it is the logical conclusion of no agreement.If everyone accepts england cant force the eu to agree to a deal , then i cant see the issue?

Clearly..

But thats exactly what happened. We agree may was useless , but eu intransigence , which was predicted at the outset before any negotiations started indeed the remain side said the eu would set the agenda  , set the timescale then refuse to budge on key issues , then as time went on it became obvious the eu were being intransigent.

Who cares what the remain side said?



May played around with the EU and tried to pull the wool over their eyes multi tiles and fence sat non-stop.

Im not blaming them , im simply saying they dont have to agree , and neither doe the uk have to agree  , so that obviously leave no deal.

Fine but that still returns to the leace campaign point.

I dont agree everyone hates both deals in equal measure no. The erg backed johnsons deal , they didnt mays.

Yeah Bojo's deal which is worse than May's cos they'e desperate now.



Farage doesn't back it does he? Neither do loads of Tory brexiters... with a brain.

Further this is the issue of why there possibly may need to be a no deal , if remainers wont accept any deals on offer , and wont tell us what they want to see brexit go forward ,m then they either back johnsons deal or hard brexit.

False dichotomy.

Telling us to re vote on some false dichotomy or remain is anti democratic and wont be accepted.

Like Bojo undemocratically forcing a revote multi times?



Or proroguing parliament?



Or all the other BS he's pulled?



And you have the nerve to say others are undemocratic?

I dont think they are. I deal with customers on a daily basis for work , and if we cant come to mutual agreement , then we walk.Why are you suggesting this is any different?



I want to stop brexit for scotland. I will not support any brexit deal or BRINO. However , the english political parties have a major problem in  that they want to remain , their electorate want to leave , and they cant come up with a way of joining those two anti compatible positions.

Agreed but still, the public were misled - even you agree with me on this.



That's why there is IMHO no proper democratic solution to this.

Johnson at least has tried to deal and do brexit , he will never get support from remainers in england no matter what , so in the end he has to brexit one way or the other.

But he is worse than useless, that is my only gripe with him - other than that, I've no issue. He is a terrible negotiator..

Remember no deal doesnt look like being n the table , but neither can it be taken off. That  was where may failed drastically by hamstringing herself by refusin to walk and accepting a bad deal.

I do agree that May was terrible yes .

Brexit was impossible from the start as we all know because the uk was never ever going to get a cherry picking deal. Thats would have ended the eu , as everyone would have wanted to leave and get the same cherry picking deal. We all said this from day one.



However that left enacting the democratic vote. As time went by , it looked like the uk wouldnt get the cherry pciking cake and eat it deal , and further itlooked like breaking the uk up over northern ireland and scotland.

There is no 'good' solution to this mess.



You can chuck whatever accusations you like my way, but I knew everythung would go to shit in 2016 during the ref; why do you think I abstained?



No I don't support the Brit remainers either. And I don't think anything either side (in England) has done is even remotely acceptable in any way.

Thats bollocks in my opinion.



Disingenuous bollocks.



If the uk stays part of the eu customs union , it cannot do its own trade deals.

Sorry but we already have done individual FTAs while in the EU.



100% untrue.

Now as you rightly point out , leaving the eu , but agreeing to a customes union deal with the eu wont stop the uk doing its own trade deals.



Where you are being disingenuous though , like the labour party , is that freedom will come at a price which is intolerable to people who voted brexit to be free of the eu.

And I agree it's intolerable to the majority Brexit voting public.



I'm not saying there are ANY democratic or workable solutions anymore - they have vanished.



That is the honest truth.

Thats the problem with you though  , you had to be dragged kicking and screaming to admit to going to vote labour , you dont support brexit , (now no deal brexit of course) you dont support labours position , and you dont support the tores position , yet when pressed for your solution , can only mumble half heartedly about enacting brexit with somethng everyone can agree to which is crap.



No one voted for CU or FOM. So that pushes brexit towards no deal if the eu wont budge .

No it does not - it means that there are no adequate solutions.



What happens in chess if neither side can bring about their desired outcome? A draw.



Both sides IMHO need to accept that we have reached a 'draw' and neither side will benefit from any of the outcomes - but it's us Brits who have failed to negotiate most of all.

Wait what?



You are fecking telling me you didnt vote in 2016 , so you didnt have a say?



Get off these boards then. Nothing to do with you. Us adults who went out and voted will make the decision , not some limp wristed individual who couldnt even be arsed to vote and have the courage of his convictions.jesus :oops:  :roll:

No, not even slightly right.



Abstention & spoilt ballots are recognized and valid tactics that have changed elections & referenda around the world. The referendum as you conceded was a sham - have the courage of your own convictions and admit that.



I'm vindicated - every solution to this impasse is anti-democratic and negative and tramples on the will of the people in one way or another. I thought this might happen in 2016.... who was right? Me.

i would say you are one of the most unrealistic on these boards  .If you think the english public will accept some airy fairy CU deal . or some sort of watered down FOM , you are not only unrealistic , but deluded to the core.

Nope I don't expect them to, I know they won't accept any result that favours any of the sides in this impasse. There's no good solution is there?

:: Ok mate , you stand in a corner , sulk , and dont vote , we will vote for you.

Um you're in Scotland, I'm in England.



Cameron wasnt in charge.



You dont buy a dog and bark yersell do you?



Lol...yes he was in charge. What the heck are you on about..



I have more time listening to jo swinson , boris johnson , nigel farage , or nicola sturgeon than i have listening to you.



Good for you..

Your problem mate is arrogance , and looking down on people while thinking they are as daft as you sound.



Dont take the public for fools.

They are fools, they voted against scot indyref and voted for Brexit based on lies.



As super hans says "don't trust people jez, people voted for the nazis".



That doesn't mean I don't respect their will, but it also doesn't mean their will is not 100% wrong and harmful.



I'm no better than anyone else, yet others' self-sabotage means that yes I'll criticise their silly positions til the cows come home..end of.

[Thomas]

another article on the fallacy of labours CU deal.....

"The" Customs Union, "a" Customs Union, and aligning tariffs with the Customs Union

The idea of the UK staying in the European Union's Customs Union after we exit from the EU has once again risen into political discourse.



This idea is expressed in different ways. One way is for the UK to stay "in" the European Union's existing Customs Union. Another way is for the UK and the EU to join together to form "a" customs union between them. Quite what the practical difference is between these two formulae is not clear. A third way it is expressed is for the UK to maintain its external tariffs in alignment with EU tariffs. Vague suggestions are made that this might only be "partial", ie covering some sectors of goods but not others.



But all these formulae come to the same thing. They all involve us giving up our right to set and decide the tariffs which are applied to goods entering the UK from the rest of the world. But it is not just about tariffs. Customs also operate a vast range of non-tariff controls on goods, all the way from health and other standards controls on food to, for example, safety of children's toys. In order to operate any of the variously desribed schemes, the UK would also have to apply this vast range of EU mandated legislation as well.



Others have already pointed out the issue of the increased costs for UK consumers if we were to stay inside the Customs Union as a result of being required to continue to levy high tariffs on many kinds of goods which are available more cheaply on world markets, particularly the kinds of goods where there is no significant domestic UK industry to protect and any producer benefit of the artificially high tariffs goes entirely to producers in other parts of the EU.



The economic arguments against staying in the EU Customs Union are important, but the political and constitutional consequences are even more profound, and seem to be completely ignored those who argue for negotiating to stay inside "the" or "a" Customs Union. As explained below, remaining in the EU customs union would have profound implications for the ability of the UK to govern itself as an independent nation, and would deprive it of the ability to decide its own laws over very wide fields of domestic policy extending far beyond customs controls themselves.



It would also prevent the UK from exercising an independent trade policy or concluding its own trade agreements with states outside the EU, and would inevitably result in the UK being subject to the continuing jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice (ECJ) over the interpretation and application of the common rules which regulate the customs union.

[/b]



https://lawyersforbritain.org/staying-in-the-eu-customs-union-after-exit">https://lawyersforbritain.org/staying-i ... after-exit">https://lawyersforbritain.org/staying-in-the-eu-customs-union-after-exit





People like dynamis rely 100 % on ignorance of the uk public to try and sell some pig in a poke Brexit in name only.



Read up on the utter nonsense he is spouting , and the simple fact the eu have made it clear from day one the closer you are to the eu and frictionless trade , the more eu control over the uk , and the opposite the further away you are.



Maybe no deal brexit and complete severance of ties is the only way brexit can truly be enacted , but for now at least boris johnson is trying to further brexit , whereas labour are merely fobbing people off.

[Thomas]

What about Turkey?

Turkey has often been held up as example of a non-EU country entering into a customs union arrangement with the EU.



It's had a customs union deal with the EU since 1995, although it's not as comprehensive as the one Labour is seeking.



That's because Turkey's customs arrangement only applies to industrial products.



This means Turkey has some limited freedom to strike its own trade deals, but only in the areas not covered by its customs union arrangement - such as agriculture.



Turkey can also strike deals around the world on services - as this is not a customs union issue.



It has a number of trade deals with nearby countries, such as Georgia and Lebanon as well countries as far afield as Chile.



However, Turkey is also obliged to apply common external tariffs on industrial products arriving from outside the EU customs union.



This is a very strict rule, according to Catherine Barnard an EU law professor at Cambridge University.



"Under no circumstances may Turkey be authorised to apply a customs tariff which is lower than the common external tariff for any product," she says.

[/b]



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46891257">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46891257





Bascially after labour party types accusing brexiters of wanting a pie in the sky brexit deal , labour then try and sell , while failing miserably , some pie in the sky CU deal with the eu , which wont 100% give the uk freedom to do its own trade deals.



Practically every article and commentator i have heard or read mocks labours policy big time.



A labour party mythical CU deal with the eu isnt brexit. No one voted for the CU  , or labours CU in 2016.





https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/16925/production/_105235429_corbynquote.png">

Claim: Labour is proposing a new permanent customs union with the European Union (EU) after Brexit which would allow the UK "a say" in future trade deals.



Reality Check Verdict: EU law currently does not allow non-EU members to have a formal say or veto in its trade talks. Labour says the EU has shown flexibility in the past and its proposal cannot be ruled out until the party has had a chance to negotiate formally.

[/b]

[Thomas]

Just to clarify my post above about the eu customs union dynamis is skirting around.



The labour party want to leave the eu Customs union , then negotiate a specific uk / eu CU . What they call leaving

THE CU

[/b] , and joining

A CU

[/b]



As i understand it from boards such as these , what the english people voted for was to leave behind eu interference when they voted brexit.



so what labour , and dynamis are potentially trying to sell is leaving he eu customs union , where the uk is unable 100% to do any outside trade deals , to negotiating a uk/eu specific CU , where the eu will have not quite 100 % say on the uks trade deals , but a very large percentage of control and say nevertheless.



This to me is nothing more than total dishonesty , and attempted sleight of hand.



Its a large part of the reason why labour are going to be crushed in my opinion. You can have 5 % freedom under labours CU than 0 % freedom under the eu cu. ::

[Thomas]

TBH Thomas when you quote that statements have been made and are then asked for evidence which you supply (dates....when do they think? 1066)  and they are then dismissed as worthless and are told your argument has been destroyed you know that there is no meaningful exchange possible.

fully agree cromwell. It can be fun though listening to it , and attakcing it ,  if you can be bothered.

Actually Thomas I did think Devolution was a good idea as all three other nations had been treated abysmally at times but there should've been an English parliament too and a HoC cut down to size dealing with defence ,international issues a federation if you like but in any event the genie is out of the bottle and any attempt to repeal it would be futile with or without commons approval.

fully agree cromwell , but to give england its own parliament would means wresting control of the whole uk from westminster , and they would never allow it.



Labour have to take the blame. They had the time and the power to do it , the tories were never in favour of any devolution , and now the only course left is to go our own ways.

[Thomas]

Agreed







I would absolutely concede your point were there any mention by the leave campaigns of a no deal Brexit.

That is the point though , they didnt have to mention it, as it is the logical conclusion of no agreement.If everyone accepts england cant force the eu to agree to a deal , then i cant see the issue?

And I will go one further - IF May the remainer had tried harder to obtain a good deal - and you must concede that she was bloody useless & abysmal as is countrywide consensus - but IF she had tried hard to agree a good deal and it failed due to EU inttansigence; then I'd say fair enough - No-Deal Brexit it is for us.

But thats exactly what happened. We agree may was useless , but eu intransigence , which was predicted at the outset before any negotiations started indeed the remain side said the eu would set the agenda  , set the timescale then refuse to budge on key issues , then as time went on it became obvious the eu were being intransigent.



Im not blaming them , im simply saying they dont have to agree , and neither doe the uk have to agree  , so that obviously leave no deal.

But that did not happen did it? Everyone hated her deal, from the right Brexiteers to the BINOers.



And the same is true with Bojo's deal.

I dont agree everyone hates both deals in equal measure no. The erg backed johnsons deal , they didnt mays.



Further this is the issue of why there possibly may need to be a no deal , if remainers wont accept any deals on offer , and wont tell us what they want to see brexit go forward ,m then they either back johnsons deal or hard brexit.



Telling us to re vote on some false dichotomy or remain is anti democratic and wont be accepted.

Will you not concede these points? Surely they are eminently fair & reasonable like your points are?

I dont think they are. I deal with customers on a daily basis for work , and if we cant come to mutual agreement , then we walk.Why are you suggesting this is any different?



I want to stop brexit for scotland. I will not support any brexit deal or BRINO. However , the english political parties have a major problem in  that they want to remain , their electorate want to leave , and they cant come up with a way of joining those two anti compatible positions.



Johnson at least has tried to deal and do brexit , he will never get support from remainers in england no matter what , so in the end he has to brexit one way or the other.



Remember no deal doesnt look like being n the table , but neither can it be taken off. That  was where may failed drastically by hamstringing herself by refusin to walk and accepting a bad deal.

Maybe you're right, maybe even if we had good negotiators it would have been impossible - but we can never know that can we?

Brexit was impossible from the start as we all know because the uk was never ever going to get a cherry picking deal. Thats would have ended the eu , as everyone would have wanted to leave and get the same cherry picking deal. We all said this from day one.



However that left enacting the democratic vote. As time went by , it looked like the uk wouldnt get the cherry pciking cake and eat it deal , and further itlooked like breaking the uk up over northern ireland and scotland.



Did the english brexiter cave in? No it made them even more determined , so im not sure why you cant see no deal is just being laughed at by brexiters and the english public.



They want to leave the eu , preferrebaly with a good deal , but if not at all costs.

The problem with all that, is it's misleading guile - we actually can already do trade deals and limit FoM and nearly everything else that they lie to us about.



That's a big reason why it's so dishonest in my humble opinion.

Thats bollocks in my opinion.



Disingenuous bollocks.



If the uk stays part of the eu customs union , it cannot do its own trade deals.



However if it leaves , and does what labour suggests , and negotiates a uk eu CU deal , this is also fraught with many issues that labour think people are simply unaware of.



First of all a labour party customs union does not solve the issue of the irish hard border.

4. A customs union does not solve the issue of a hard border.

A common external tariff doesn't avoid the issue of a hard border because tariffs are only one of the issues that affects free movement of goods. Regulatory checks for compliance and transport services are also of vital importance.



The EU has strict requirements on controlled goods like food, chemicals and any electrical goods before they enter the EU market. These rules are especially burdensome for countries that are not part of the Single Market.



Where Turkey does not follow EU rules for the production, labelling, movement and storage of these goods, it still faces border checks for compliance, ranging from document checks to testing product samples. The fact that as a member state the UK follows those rules now would not automatically carry over after Brexit when it leaves the Single Market. The UK would need to establish a suitable means of regulatory cooperation or face checks at the border.



Even an agreement that deals with tariffs and some regulatory barriers for goods still falls short of frictionless trade. As the Turkey-Bulgaria border demonstrates, Turkish hauliers routinely suffer traffic congestion, with trucks backed up as far as 17 kilometres. The Financial Times reported that one of the major reasons for this is because Turkey's agreement does not cover transport services. Turkish hauliers must apply for transport permits for each member state they travel through. These are allotted through quotas, limiting the number of trucks that can pass through.

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Now as you rightly point out , leaving the eu , but agreeing to a customes union deal with the eu wont stop the uk doing its own trade deals.



Where you are being disingenuous though , like the labour party , is that freedom will come at a price which is intolerable to people who voted brexit to be free of the eu.

What we know is that an incomplete customs union, where product coverage is less than 100% or trade policies are not fully harmonised, could give the UK more freedom to sign its own trade deals. Turkey, an example of a country in an incomplete customs union with the EU, has a number of Free Trade Agreements with non-EU countries. However, if the UK steps outside the EU Customs Union and creates an incomplete UK-EU Customs Union, then embarks on signing new trade deals, there would need to be rules agreed regarding the coexistence of trade agreements. In simple terms, when the clauses in different trade deals start to conflict with each other, there will need to be a way to resolve these disputes.

[/b]



So again its labour types and some remainers who are being dishonest. The eu said from day one you can be  as close to us , or as far away from us in terms of trade as you like. The closer you get , the more eu rules you need to obey , the further away , the less you need to obey if at all , but the more friction there is to trade.



Brexiters want no eu interference at all , and you cant seem to accpet that. That  is why labours dishonest position of trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes is going to lead in the end to their destruction.



People arent daft , they are more and more politically engaged. You would be better off coming out and saying you wont support brexit , take the hit , but reclaim the moral high ground like swinson and the liberals.



Further if brexit does go tits up , you can come out looking squeaky clean , while at the minute the tories will turn round and say you supported brexit  , however half heartedly too.



Its a pathetic position to take , and as mays tenure as pm showed , fence sitting never goes down well with the public.

But the problem is, I don't really agree with Las position either so there's no reason to keep bringing this up.

Thats the problem with you though  , you had to be dragged kicking and screaming to admit to going to vote labour , you dont support brexit , (now no deal brexit of course) you dont support labours position , and you dont support the tores position , yet when pressed for your solution , can only mumble half heartedly about enacting brexit with somethng everyone can agree to which is crap.



No one voted for CU or FOM. So that pushes brexit towards no deal if the eu wont budge .

Not my position, none of that is my position.



In 2016 I didn't vote for remain, in fact I abstained from it because the outright lies, deception and law-breaking on both sides is a matter of public record.

Wait what?



You are fecking telling me you didnt vote in 2016 , so you didnt have a say?



Get off these boards then. Nothing to do with you. Us adults who went out and voted will make the decision , not some limp wristed individual who couldnt even be arsed to vote and have the courage of his convictions.jesus :oops:  :roll:

I'm not a 'remainer', I'm just realistic and straightforward about the whole thing.

i would say you are one of the most unrealistic on these boards  .If you think the english public will accept some airy fairy CU deal . or some sort of watered down FOM , you are not only unrealistic , but deluded to the core.

IMHO mass abstention & spoilt balloting is a valid tactic in corrupt referenda and elections, and may be a'y idea if any future scot indyref is run deand it is clearly corrupt & manipulated.

 :: Ok mate , you stand in a corner , sulk , and dont vote , we will vote for you.

Cameron ran the whole thing abysmally.

Cameron wasnt in charge.



You dont buy a dog and bark yersell do you?

The problem is that you won't stop lumping me in with them, my ideas are wholly different.



I would rather not have a 2nd ref, it is messy, it would be preferable if they just brought us back a supportable deal.

I have more time listening to jo swinson , boris johnson , nigel farage , or nicola sturgeon than i have listening to you.



Your problem mate is arrogance , and looking down on people while thinking they are as daft as you sound.



Dont take the public for fools.