One crazy trick to avoid extension

[Conchúr]

The difference is that the Conservatives are a capitalist party and capitalism works. Socialism doesn't work by the pure fact that very few people are willing to give their hard earned money or goods to people that are lees able.



All the things achieved were despite the EU.



Tell me, what have the EU done?



They haven't sold anything or bought anything so don't generate any GDP contrary to what Mr T thinks.



They haven't stopped wars as some claim, that was NATO.



All they have done is taken money off us to prop up countries with their snouts in the trough. They also force us to buy more expensive goods from within the block rather than other countries outside.



We could trade just as easily with all European countries without the EU.



So as I said, all done despite the EU.

But again, this makes no sense for a Conservative to say.  You are arguing that the status quo (capitalism and conservative government) works ... but that it works in spite of the status quo. What's more, your response to a status quo which you claim to work is to radically alter that status quo. That isn't really conservative either. Don't get me wrong, It's perfectly within the realms of conservative politics to say "well the working status quo doesn't mean that we can't perpetually push to make it work better". But what you are calling for is not a carefully managed, planned and well-conceptualised push, it is a fairly radical push which is the opposite of all those things.



If you think Brexit is ultimately better for the U.K., that's fine, there is absolutely nothing which would definitively preclude a conservative from supporting the concept of Brexit — but a true conservative, to me anyway, would only support implementing the concept where it is based on well thought-out planning and a clear sense of outcome. A true pro-Brexit conservative would look at the current debacle and conclude that, while he/she still believes that Brexit would be a good thing, it has not yet been adequately conceptualised.



To me, the problem is that the idea of 'being a Brexiter' has become effectively an ultimatum — the 'with us or against us' mentality. And, without claiming clairvoyance or trying to attack you, I think it shows in the nature of your opinions.  You are resolutely conservative in your politics but totally unconservative on the matter of Brexit because the patriotic 'religion' of Brexit, much like actual religions, demands the suspension of disbelief. In religion, all the logic and evidence-based thinking we apply to daily life must be suspended in the context of the religion  . . . or else you aren't a true believer.  And so it is with Brexit, where logic and evidence-based thinking is dismissed as unpatriotic 'heresy' and those who advocate it are not true believers / true patriots.



So, in your case, it seems to me that you are indeed conservative in your daily life politics, but you suspend your conservatism at the altar of Brexit.  Trying to be sincere here by the way, not intending to insult.

[papasmurf]

If you believe that you're deluded.

I can't believe you are.

[Nick]

If capitalism worked Britain would not be in the deep poo it currently is.

If you believe that you're deluded.

[Baron von Lotsov]

If capitalism worked Britain would not be in the deep poo it currently is.

We don't do capitalism in this country much anymore. Theft is a more accurate description. I've been robbed by my telephone!

[papasmurf]

The difference is that the Conservatives are a capitalist party and capitalism works.

If capitalism worked Britain would not be in the deep poo it currently is.

[Nick]

OK, so let's suppose for a second that everything you say there is 100% true, what can we say about that?:



Awarded the NHS all that money — while the UK is a member of the EU. Reduced GDP% debt — while a member of the EU. Adopted and implemented a policy of austerity which I am taking it that you deem to have been a good or at least necessary policy — while a member of the EU. Staved off the socialist tide of Corbynism — while a member of the EU.



So I find myself confused when, on one hand, you laud these achievements of conservatism which were all achieved whilst the UK remained a member of the EU, but on the other hand, you also adopt a seemingly strongly un-Conservative belief that despite all these things the UK should still embark on a woefully planned and flimsily conceived massive constitutional and economic shift.  



I mean, if a Socialist came on here and argued for a massive constitutional and economic shift towards socialism — and offered no real feasible plan or tangible vision as to how their beliefs could be implemented — you would get laid into them, right? That would indeed be a quintessentially conservative thing to do. Yet, strangely in my opinion, you advocate another view which is planless and lacking in tangible vision — and to me that seems like a supremely unconservative stance. Even Thatcher's somewhat radical changes (which were not as seismically all-encompassing as Brexit), were based on actual tangible visions and a plan for where it would all lead.



So, I don't know Nick, maybe I'm pigeonholing you unfairly here — but you laud the achievements of conservative government in the UK which has remained an EU member all this time, and this somehow leads you to the belief that the next logical step is a massively uncertain, poorly-planned and poorly-conceptualised drive towards Brexit. It just seems odd.

The difference is that the Conservatives are a capitalist party and capitalism works. Socialism doesn't work by the pure fact that very few people are willing to give their hard earned money or goods to people that are lees able.



All the things achieved were despite the EU.



Tell me, what have the EU done?



They haven't sold anything or bought anything so don't generate any GDP contrary to what Mr T thinks.



They haven't stopped wars as some claim, that was NATO.



All they have done is taken money off us to prop up countries with their snouts in the trough. They also force us to buy more expensive goods from within the block rather than other countries outside.



We could trade just as easily with all European countries without the EU.



So as I said, all done despite the EU.

[Javert]

Not to mention the claims are spinning so fast I'm surprised they are not taking off.

[Conchúr]

In practice they have:



Awarded the NHS more than the figure on the big red bus.



Debt as % GDP is now falling after they have arrested the mess left by Labour.



Boris has renegotiated the un-negotiable deal and would have had us out if it weren't for the Remainer MP's.



Stopped Corbyn from ever setting foot in #10.



Before you mention austerity, I call it living within your means. Something the Labour Party don't know how to do.

OK, so let's suppose for a second that everything you say there is 100% true, what can we say about that?:



Awarded the NHS all that money — while the UK is a member of the EU. Reduced GDP% debt — while a member of the EU. Adopted and implemented a policy of austerity which I am taking it that you deem to have been a good or at least necessary policy — while a member of the EU. Staved off the socialist tide of Corbynism — while a member of the EU.



So I find myself confused when, on one hand, you laud these achievements of conservatism which were all achieved whilst the UK remained a member of the EU, but on the other hand, you also adopt a seemingly strongly un-Conservative belief that despite all these things the UK should still embark on a woefully planned and flimsily conceived massive constitutional and economic shift.  



I mean, if a Socialist came on here and argued for a massive constitutional and economic shift towards socialism — and offered no real feasible plan or tangible vision as to how their beliefs could be implemented — you would get laid into them, right? That would indeed be a quintessentially conservative thing to do. Yet, strangely in my opinion, you advocate another view which is planless and lacking in tangible vision — and to me that seems like a supremely unconservative stance. Even Thatcher's somewhat radical changes (which were not as seismically all-encompassing as Brexit), were based on actual tangible visions and a plan for where it would all lead.



So, I don't know Nick, maybe I'm pigeonholing you unfairly here — but you laud the achievements of conservative government in the UK which has remained an EU member all this time, and this somehow leads you to the belief that the next logical step is a massively uncertain, poorly-planned and poorly-conceptualised drive towards Brexit. It just seems odd.

[Nick]

The problem with the Tories is that you may actually like the things they claim to stand for, but on a practical level (i.e. rather than ideological level), how could you ever vote for this current rendition of that party? From Cameron, to May, to Johnson, the Tory party have consistently put party first and allowed their own in-fighting to embroil the country in a damaging and divisive political and constitutional crisis.  



Not only that, in a Brexit movement which was allegedly a punch in the face of elite (something which I found laughable from the very start, because it's utter horsecrap), the Tories have moved to actually enhance the power of a select elite.  I mean, they literally tried to illegally put Parliament aside to give themselves the most unprecedented level of executive power to shape the constitutional status of the UK since the days of absolute monarchy.



People might be loyal to the Tories on the basis of their ideology. But if you weigh up ideological matters with what this current crop of Tories has been doing to the UK for the past few years, I find it absolutely shocking that people would vote for them.

In practice they have:



Awarded the NHS more than the figure on the big red bus.



Debt as % GDP is now falling after they have arrested the mess left by Labour.



Boris has renegotiated the un-negotiable deal and would have had us out if it weren't for the Remainer MP's.



Stopped Corbyn from ever setting foot in #10.



Before you mention austerity, I call it living within your means. Something the Labour Party don't know how to do.

[papasmurf]

You praying that the Tories don't get. That's your wish list.



You've made it quite clear what you think of them.

I have no religion, and if I ever posted what I really think of the Tories I would get banned.

[Conchúr]

You praying that the Tories don't get. That's your wish list.



You've made it quite clear what you think of them.

The problem with the Tories is that you may actually like the things they claim to stand for, but on a practical level (i.e. rather than ideological level), how could you ever vote for this current rendition of that party? From Cameron, to May, to Johnson, the Tory party have consistently put party first and allowed their own in-fighting to embroil the country in a damaging and divisive political and constitutional crisis.  



Not only that, in a Brexit movement which was allegedly a punch in the face of elite (something which I found laughable from the very start, because it's utter horsecrap), the Tories have moved to actually enhance the power of a select elite.  I mean, they literally tried to illegally put Parliament aside to give themselves the most unprecedented level of executive power to shape the constitutional status of the UK since the days of absolute monarchy.



People might be loyal to the Tories on the basis of their ideology. But if you weigh up ideological matters with what this current crop of Tories has been doing to the UK for the past few years, I find it absolutely shocking that people would vote for them.

[Nick]

What wish list?

You praying that the Tories don't get. That's your wish list.



You've made it quite clear what you think of them.

[papasmurf]

A wish list isn't an indicator of what will happen.

What wish list?

[Nick]

Polls are not trustworthy in recent years.  An analysis of each constituency shows the result is frankly anyone's guess and is not clear cut at all.

One factor being tactical voting to keep the Tories out. The Tories could lose all or close to it of their seats in Scotland.

A wish list isn't an indicator of what will happen.

[Nick]

My thoughts exactly. The only problem would be independent thinking Conservative MPs.

I'm sure Boris will read the riot act to any MP being put forward as a candidate.