Walking and Talking in China

[Thomas]

https://pol-tics.com/index.php/topic,2488.msg52045.html#msg52045 in reply to gerry,not you
https://pol-tics.com/index.php/topic,423.msg10550.html#msg10550 in reply to T00ts not you

Just two of many and they're mealy mouthed? Oh ok.
Oh look another https://pol-tics.com/index.php/topic,423.msg9501/topicseen.html#msg9501

yep mealy mouthed.

Check both the threads out .

The first link to the gunboat thread , i was on their posting long before you said anything about scot indy , and when you replied to gerry in the thread , you were merely reciprocating support for indy because i had posted about supporting democracy over brexit.

Hardly spontaneuous.

The second thread is nothing more than desperate muck raking from you from a thread off the old forum where i had again been on there posting about scot indy , in a thread about scotland voting snp where you said in the o/p scotland was going to do one!

Hardly spontaneous.

So in both threads , rather than a gushing support for democracy , the tone of your posts suggest regretfull realism of the situation in scotland rather than demands that johnson gives scotland an indy ref as he is being anti democrtic in the way you are accusing china.



here cromwell..

[cromwell]

https://pol-tics.com/index.php/topic,2488.msg52045.html#msg52045 in reply to gerry,not you
https://pol-tics.com/index.php/topic,423.msg10550.html#msg10550 in reply to T00ts not you

Just two of many and they're mealy mouthed? Oh ok.
Oh look another https://pol-tics.com/index.php/topic,423.msg9501/topicseen.html#msg9501

[Thomas]

Using the quotes show you,oh yes sir right away sir,l

So thatll be a no then. You try and make a point , and can't back it up. Heres what you said

Oh well Thomas do I really have to dig up my many previous posts regarding Scotland's right to another referendum none of which were mealy mouthed or forced to agree to,

so over to you ...where are these posts where you jump into threads off your own back and lament the fact your government wont allow scotland an indy ref?

You are quick to criticise china , but silent on issues such as scotland or the chagos......UNLESS someone ( usually me) brings them up and you get all mealy mouthed and are forced to agree with me.

look Thomas the fact you cannot differentiate between heavy sarcasm at Gerrys ignorance of circumstances,

i have no idea what you are talking about , and as ever , you are scrabbling about in the dirt trying to blame someone else for your failings.

Gerry hasnt been involved in this thread , and the other threads he has been involved in , i have told him what i think. If there is some relevance and something you want to say to gerry , pop over to the threads he has posted on and say it.

FYI I wasn't saying look what the Spanish do in Morocco even if I was so what just highlighting again that Gerry sees only the English and not that practically the whole of Europe were colonialists.

i agree with you over spain and gibraltar/mellilla. I have said so many a time , so again , apart from muddying the thread and subject at hand im no sure what point you are making.

The spanish government are hypocrites , and so are yours.

I didn't even mention Gib he did,I don't need you to remind that if you want your indyref you should get it same with Gib if they want to go Spanish and the Falklands too so be it,in the meantime if they say no we want to stay Brits I'll defend that.

Gibraltar , like the falklands , are nothing to do with me. Neither is china. Im pointing out certain british individuals hypocrisy on the matter of upholding internatioal law and human rights etc etc regarding the chinese , when they are blind or willfuly silent on similar issues by their own government.

Im not disagreeing with you over gibraltar or the falklands , gerry is so take it up with him.

Is that mealy mouthed enough for you,and call me a hypocrite but I will remind you not long after the referendum it was all we Europeans this and that from you and what a shower the brexiteers were,and yes I know brexit is a means to an end for you but at least I understand where you're coming from.

I have been consistent throughout the whole brexit referendum  , so show me please where i havent?

Again you delve into straw clutching and diverting .

Happy to debate this subject with you anytime , and any others like falklands etc , but in this , im pointing out your bleating hypocricy of trying to defend britian  over various issues , or by deflecting and saying thats history ,  to shut down debate while openly criticising china for doing what the british government similarly do.

[cromwell]

unlike china where you freely enter into threads such as this to say you disagree with their government for the various reasons we have talked about , using the quoite tags show me a thread you have freely entered into without a post of mine to reply to , to show criticism of the uk government for not giving scotland a referendum ?

Over to you.
Deflection .

Calling you a hypocrite , its a noun in the english language cromwell , not some end of the world swear word , is now a terrible insult? You are a hypocrite on many issues. Told you that beofre , and i stand 100 % by that.

Deflection. Again .

Using the quote tags show me where i said you cannot?

Using the quotes show you,oh yes sir right away sir,look Thomas the fact you cannot differentiate between heavy sarcasm at Gerrys ignorance of circumstances,FYI I wasn't saying look what the Spanish do in Morocco even if I was so what just highlighting again that Gerry sees only the English and not that practically the whole of Europe were colonialists.

I didn't even mention Gib he did,I don't need you to remind that if you want your indyref you should get it same with Gib if they want to go Spanish and the Falklands too so be it,in the meantime if they say no we want to stay Brits I'll defend that.

Is that mealy mouthed enough for you,and call me a hypocrite but I will remind you not long after the referendum it was all we Europeans this and that from you and what a shower the brexiteers were,and yes I know brexit is a means to an end for you but at least I understand where you're coming from.

[papasmurf]

Maybe a tad hypocritical but can we never comment on international matters without  comebacks that the UK have been just as bad in the past . We as individuals  and I include all the world in that , have to be able to separate ourselves from our governments .

We have to have a voice .

The way Britain has dealt with Julian Assange, the Empire Windrush affair, and several hostile environments towards it own citizens is disgraceful.

[Thomas]

Maybe a tad hypocritical but can we never comment on international matters without  comebacks that the UK have been just as bad in the past . We as individuals  and I include all the world in that , have to be able to separate ourselves from our governments .

We have to have a voice .

i agree  to a point.

Thats what the un , and international law and majority international view is all about. Which the uk ( and many of its citizens) are ignoring.

The british and americans , or farage acting the loose cannon shouting the odds at the chinese when the british ( and others) are behaving no better does nothing but demean international law , and international obligations and organisations , as many have pointed out.

How do you expect the chinese or russians to take you serious when all they will do is turn around and point out your hypocrisy?

You cant seperate yourself from your ogvernment streetwalker and say you need a voice as governments deal with governments on the international stage , not unelected no bodies like farage or joe bloggs on a political forum.

We elect governments allegedly to represent us , so until that changes this is how it is , and china britain america russia will carry on being hypocrites and doing as they please.

[Streetwalker]

im not asking you to streetwalker , im pointing out the general level of hypocrisy on chinas various issues coming from westminster gov , farage downwards to politics forums like this.

Uk governments routinely claim to uphold international law etc , but as we can see , the reality and behaviour rarely matches the rhetoric  , never mind the willfull blindness on the subject by certain individuals choking to criticise other governments while ignoring the behaviour of their own.

Maybe a tad hypocritical but can we never comment on international matters without  comebacks that the UK have been just as bad in the past . We as individuals  and I include all the world in that , have to be able to separate ourselves from our governments .

We have to have a voice .

[Thomas]

I can't help you with why Westminster and England in general are not supporting democracy in Scotland .   They are not supporting it in China either regardless of what Farage has to say . Farage unlike me  is a confirmed unionist
Maybe its an Im all right jack mentality

im not asking you to streetwalker , im pointing out the general level of hypocrisy on chinas various issues coming from westminster gov , farage downwards to politics forums like this.

Uk governments routinely claim to uphold international law etc , but as we can see , the reality and behaviour rarely matches the rhetoric  , never mind the willfull blindness on the subject by certain individuals choking to criticise other governments while ignoring the behaviour of their own.

[Thomas]

Oh well Thomas do I really have to dig up my many previous posts regarding Scotland's right to another referendum none of which were mealy mouthed or forced to agree to,

unlike china where you freely enter into threads such as this to say you disagree with their government for the various reasons we have talked about , using the quoite tags show me a thread you have freely entered into without a post of mine to reply to , to show criticism of the uk government for not giving scotland a referendum ?

Over to you.

still you resort to your usual tactic of personal insults when confronted.

Deflection .

Calling you a hypocrite , its a noun in the english language cromwell , not some end of the world swear word , is now a terrible insult? You are a hypocrite on many issues. Told you that beofre , and i stand 100 % by that.

And as a political forum I'll post what I like as a personal opinion without reference to you ta very much.

Deflection. Again .

Using the quote tags show me where i said you cannot?

[cromwell]

its not a lie. You are  , and have been silent on the issue of your government ignoring democracy in scotland except when pushed to the limit , and then you come out all mealy mouthed and are forced to agree.

Further ,as i point out , if thats what you beleive that we should have another idy ref , then you are a hypocrite as i said criticising china , and should be turning your flak at your own government vocally before criticising other governments for merely doing what yours are doing.

Oh well Thomas do I really have to dig up my many previous posts regarding Scotland's right to another referendum none of which were mealy mouthed or forced to agree to,still you resort to your usual tactic of personal insults when confronted.

And as a political forum I'll post what I like as a personal opinion without reference to you ta very much.

[Streetwalker]

i know you do.

Im asking where is the vocal outpouring of rage against the lack of democracy by the british government in scotland and elsewhere?

Im pointing out the hypocricy by silence on these matters , while that same silent group of people suddenly find their voice to criticise china.?

What when some spotty nosed teenager , english labour if i remember in edinburgh , chased him into a pub?

Farage and your party have stood time and again over many years in scotland for election at every level , and have recieved a political kicking again and again.

Such is democracy.

Having been rejected so comprehensively over many years , averaging around less than 2% of the vote , is it any wonder why the majority dont want to listen to him when he pisses on the majority view on issues such as devolution?

Farage has about as much understanding of scotland as he does of china it seems to me.

I cant help you with why Westminster and England in general are not supporting democracy in Scotland .   They are not supporting it in China either regardless of what Farage has to say . Farage unlike me  is a confirmed unionist
Maybe its an Im all right jack mentality

[Thomas]

Twist it all you like and take out of context a reply to Gerry about Gib Thomas and as to your first point you know that's an absolute lie.

its not a lie. You are  , and have been silent on the issue of your government ignoring democracy in scotland except when pushed to the limit , and then you come out all mealy mouthed and are forced to agree.

Further ,as i point out , if thats what you beleive that we should have another idy ref , then you are a hypocrite as i said criticising china , and should be turning your flak at your own government vocally before criticising other governments for merely doing what yours are doing.

[Thomas]

Running away? What are you on about....I clearly told you earlier the chagos islands should go back to the islanders have always said that,I've also stated that the Scots should have another indyref based on the eu referendum have I not? And please don't start with all the wriggling and deflection nonsense I'm doing neither.

you are running away. Blaming the americans by insinuation for making the uk hold onto the chagos islands is a nonsense , easily got out of iff you stop to think for a minute while tripping over your feet trying to deflect from uk criticism.

You say that the Brits can do nothing without US permission in one post

no i didnt . This is you subtley trying and failing to twist out of context my point to sampan.

Heres what i said.

Secondly who is nigel farage , a non entity outside of england to be honest , not even elected politically to represent england , or the uk government , to act as the worlds policeman?

Thats a job for the international community collectively if china is breaking laws , agreements  , human rights etc , not a regime at westminster or minor mouthpieces on the fringe of the english chattering classes , none of whom have the international clout , military or economic might to enforce anything without americas permission and backing.

Its not down to the uk or usa to act as the worlds policeman( we know they try anyway) , its down to the international community , who had a vote on the chagos islands , and voted 166 to 6 against the uk over the subject.

In the context of acting as the wordls policeman , i wasa saying the uk doesnt have the military economic or political clout to do anything without americas backing.

The uk doesnt need americas backing to hand back the chagos islands , so you aren getting out of absolving your country of responsibility that easily .

The uk could symbolically hand back the chaogs , and the blame would then shift to america , but it wont.

So you have no argument about a big boy forcing you to hold onto the chagos.

so aye you are wriggling as ever.

[cromwell]

Cromwell.......#silence on scotland being offered the same demcoracy the english demand from china for its regions#



Northern ireland .....# its in the past , all forgotten# .......#silence on streetwalker bringin up chinas past#



Chagos islands......# america is making us keep them#



Gibraltar........# what about what about what about mellila and ceuta#


You either agree with demcoracy , the rule of law , and the principles being talkesd about , or you dont.

Twist it all you like and take out of context a reply to Gerry about Gib Thomas and as to your first point you know that's an absolute lie.

[cromwell]

What point are you trying to make cromwell?

The chagos islands are a british problem , not american . The british not the americans have been told to hand them back so what are you saying?

A big boy made us keep them, its not our fault?

I havent heard one coherent argument or point form you in this thread , all deflection and blaming eveyrone else and running away.

If , as you imply , the big boys in america are forcing the uk to not hand back the chagos islands while the uk is taking international blame , then all the uk has to do is agree to the internaitonal courts demands  , hand the islands back to mauritius , and then the blame falls directly at americas feet , and they will be in the dock for not complying.

Its not difficult cromwell.

Instead all through the thread all we get is wriggling from you are ever and deflections.

You can't lecture nations on their behaviour while your nation breaks international law and refuses to accept democracy.

Running away? What are you on about....I clearly told you earlier the chagos islands should go back to the islanders have always said that,I've also stated that the Scots should have another indyref based on the eu referendum have I not? And please don't start with all the wriggling and deflection nonsense I'm doing neither.

You say that the Brits can do nothing without US permission in one post and then when I point out because of Diego Garcia that's why the islands aren't being handed back you cry deflection and wriggling,so which of your statements is true?
1) we cannot do anything without US permission
Or
2) we just hand back the Chagos islands and say sod off US