Macron is really miffed

[papasmurf]

How come the UK hasn't introduced the border checks on goods coming from the EU..

There is no infrastructure or the specialist personnel  in place at  British ports to carry out the checks needed  and no signs of any action at all being taken.

[GerryT]

The figures don't matter, it's you acknowledging that now the U.K. has left the EU has lost about 20% of its revenue, and if Germany was to leave they'd lose another 30%. Which leads to the point that Germany is holding all the cards and the rest of the EU pretty much follow what Merkel wants.

No they don't. I could also say Germany gets the most out of the EU, it has access to the (15T-3.3T = 11.7T) large 11.7T market, barrier free. 68% of German exports and 68% of German Imports are with the EU.n the EU. The cost of membership is far less than the benefit, the UK has proven that. How much has brexit cost the UK, a hell of a lot more than it cost the UK to be a member.

https://www.bmwi.de/Redaktion/EN/Publikationen/facts-about-german-foreign-trade.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=10#:~:text=exchange%20of%20goods%20continued%20to,%25%20(2017%3A%2057.1%25).

You think in simplistic terms, your only looking at the cost, not the benefit. The only way to get a law passed, change the future direction of the EU is to use the EU institutions. Germany doesn't control that, if smaller countries which make up the majority of the EU feel pressurised by a country like Germany they won't vote to their benefit. The cost of the EU is a tiny fraction of a countries GDP, what they get back from a barrier free market is tenfold what they pay.

That big bus said the EU cost 350m a week or 18.2b, the reality back then was a nett 8b when research grants funding was included, that's approx 155m a week.
As per this article the actual costs per week for brexit is 800m a week, thats 41b a yr. If germany left it would cost them more, prob not much as they don't have a rebate, but instead of costing the uk 8b it's costing over 40b. That's why the EU will survive, everyone's a winner. Unless you want to take back control and leave your borders open.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-vote-cost-trade-eu-b1843018.html

How come the UK hasn't introduced the border checks on goods coming from the EU. Firstly because its not ready and second its going to hurt business and cost a lot of money. What's happening to he UK is not an advertisement to leave, it's the total opposite. Germany benefits immensely from the EU, the last thing they want is it to break up.

[Nick]

your forgetting the uk receives research grants that dont show in these numbers, 1.5b.
I'll dig out some real numbers rather than using whats in my head. But certainly the uk isn't causing a dent in finances and germany isn't leaving.
I'm fine using nett, its a correct term. You can also use net if you want.

The figures don't matter, it's you acknowledging that now the U.K. has left the EU has lost about 20% of its revenue, and if Germany was to leave they'd lose another 30%. Which leads to the point that Germany is holding all the cards and the rest of the EU pretty much follow what Merkel wants.

[Borchester]

what is a company in the eyes of the law but a person.

No it ain't.

For Christ's sake Gerry, if you are going to bullshit at least do some research.

The whole point of a company is that it is a legal fiction.

"A corporation cannot be sued because it has no soul" Edward Coke 1552- 1634.

There is nothing wrong with telling a few porkies, but yours are so blatant they are embarrassing.

[GerryT]

The 146 billion is GROSS, stop using net (not nett) figures.

If you want to use net the fine but the % comes out even worse

Net, the EU collects 52.22 billion with the U.K., Without the U.K. 42.45 Billion.
Take Germany away from the EU the EU net cash is 25.22 billion.
Not looking good eh Gerry: take the 10.5 billion you say it takes to run the EU away and that leaves less that 15 billion.

your forgetting the uk receives research grants that dont show in these numbers, 1.5b.
I'll dig out some real numbers rather than using whats in my head. But certainly the uk isn't causing a dent in finances and germany isn't leaving.
I'm fine using nett, its a correct term. You can also use net if you want.

[Nick]

What the EU will miss from the UK is what the UK sent nett not gross as the nett takes into consideration the money given back to the uk,

The 146 billion is GROSS, stop using net (not nett) figures.

If you want to use net the fine but the % comes out even worse

Net, the EU collects 52.22 billion with the U.K., Without the U.K. 42.45 Billion.
Take Germany away from the EU the EU net cash is 25.22 billion.
Not looking good eh Gerry: take the 10.5 billion you say it takes to run the EU away and that leaves less that 15 billion.

[GerryT]

It was 146 Billion in 2018, including the UK. The UK's GROSS contribution including VAT, Customs and GNI was 20 billion so your 146 Billion is now 126 Billion.
Germany's total contribution including VAT, customs and GNI is 31 Billion per year so if they left your figure of 126 billion is now 95 billion.

Your ridiculous statement that if Germany left, the EU would only lose the Net is laughable. Do you think Germany would still be sending money? No so you'd lose the lot, all 31 billion of it.

2 countries down and the EU total annual revenue is down from 146 to 95 Billion, that's 35%.

How you think a country leaves the EU and you don't take their gross contribution away from the EU's gross revenue is beyond me. Either deal in net or gross but the in and out will still show the same, that without the UK and Germany the coffers are down 35%.

As it stands at the moment the EU would lose 31 billion from its 126 billion, that's 25% with just Germany leaving. The 31 Billion is soon going to be 44 billion when the EU requests that Germany take up 42% of the slack after Brexit.

i'll come back to this. But in simple terms the EU costs to run per yr is approx 10.5b a yr. Thats what has to be paid. Everything after that is used to fund projects around the EU and outside the EU. That is not required, its used to help develop poorer regions.
Your numbers are wrong, the UK got a rebate about 8b a yr which wasn't a rebate. It was deducted before a pound was sent to the EU. What the EU will miss from the UK is what the UK sent nett not gross as the nett takes into consideration the money given back to the uk, in addition to the rebate, for eu funded projects in the uk. Your nett contributions are circa 8b a yr, germany is circa 15b, both countries gone and the EU hasn't got 23b to give to others for projects.
Its really not a major issue, that could be recovered with a fraction of a percent increase in each countries contribution with a small percent drop in eu funded projects.

[GerryT]

Business contract has the company name as the service provider.

Employment contract has Joe Blogs as employee on it.

Dead easy.

The end.

what is a company in the eyes of the law but a person.

[GerryT]

So you don't do pharma you do BMS, which is building maintenance. The building could contain any industry, just happens to be pharma. As you said you don't do process so why mention io/oq, which I assume you mean IQ / OQ, pharma buzz words.

Again when you mention dairy I assume BMS and not process? Tetra Pak, Arla and Stork are all customers of mine.

BMS is building management system,  we control environmental conditions. These are systems with servers, networks (cisco), intelligent controllers commonly called BMS controllers (satchwell, trend, johnson, honeywell, jace), instrumentation, control panels. These systems maintain temperature, humidity and differential pressure within production areas, they dont mix the ingredients. But if our system causes the environment to go out of spec, say low pressure then a batch might have to be dumped. In Pharma a batch could be valued at several million, so our systems are seen as mission critical. Our systems would fall under the IT or Automation department on these sites.
Those terms are standard and used in pharma/food/semi conductor/data centre etc projects all over the world and refer to the type of qualification a building is done to.
I'd guess the same terms are used on submarine construction projects.

[Nick]

you have a contract, lets say you sent in tim and a week later he goes sick so you send in alan, same next week but you have no more staff so you subcontract a person/company and send him in.
In this there is one contract you to employer, anything goes wrong your responsible. You subbie lets you down your problem, employer wants security vetting your problem. Your co is employed by an employer. Its a contract, its not complicated.
Most contracts ive had where any named persons are not available, substitutes have to be vetted and approved, but that depends on the contract.
It all boils down to employee, employer, contract.

Business contract has the company name as the service provider.

Employment contract has Joe Blogs as employee on it.

Dead easy.

The end.

[GerryT]

You can try and be as slippery as you like, but ultimately I knew the answer before hand.

This is not the right ti substitute, it is getting someone to cover his shift and is inside IR35.

In the context of IR35 a right to substitute means a contractually enforceable right for a limited company contractor to replace its representative subject only to reasonable criteria such as suitability. A fundamental difference between employment and a business.

I'm not going to send a welder into an airport to do controls work am I. It will damage my business and the airport would most definitely raise the question of suitability.

you have a contract, lets say you sent in tim and a week later he goes sick so you send in alan, same next week but you have no more staff so you subcontract a person/company and send him in.
In this there is one contract you to employer, anything goes wrong your responsible. You subbie lets you down your problem, employer wants security vetting your problem. Your co is employed by an employer. Its a contract, its not complicated.
Most contracts ive had where any named persons are not available, substitutes have to be vetted and approved, but that depends on the contract.
It all boils down to employee, employer, contract.

[Nick]

core would be BMS control systems, not process. Both qualified in production/labs/warehousing and non qualified. We also do fire/access/cctv with full integration across platforms. But we only do them when its integrated, nkt enough money in fire&security alot of competition.
We do process control with gas networks and some dairy.
Design, supply, engineering, fat, sat and if asked io, oq but not pq.

So you don't do pharma you do BMS, which is building maintenance. The building could contain any industry, just happens to be pharma. As you said you don't do process so why mention io/oq, which I assume you mean IQ / OQ, pharma buzz words.

Again when you mention dairy I assume BMS and not process? Tetra Pak, Arla and Stork are all customers of mine.

[Nick]

i said hes not swapping shifts, he doesnt do somebody elses shift, his wages drop for the day he doesnt work. The person replacing him is an employee of the same co. My son gets someone to sub for him.
So does his contract, he doesnt have to work if he gets a substitute.

You can try and be as slippery as you like, but ultimately I knew the answer before hand.

This is not the right ti substitute, it is getting someone to cover his shift and is inside IR35.

In the context of IR35 a right to substitute means a contractually enforceable right for a limited company contractor to replace its representative subject only to reasonable criteria such as suitability. A fundamental difference between employment and a business.

I'm not going to send a welder into an airport to do controls work am I. It will damage my business and the airport would most definitely raise the question of suitability.

[GerryT]

That's interesting, we do Pharma. What part of the process do you do?

core would be BMS control systems, not process. Both qualified in production/labs/warehousing and non qualified. We also do fire/access/cctv with full integration across platforms. But we only do them when its integrated, nkt enough money in fire&security alot of competition.
We do process control with gas networks and some dairy.
Design, supply, engineering, fat, sat and if asked io, oq but not pq.

[GerryT]

Do tell.. Which supermarket allows your son to just send someone in to do the work when he doesn't work for them? How does he get paid? How is he covered by employers liability insurance?

No, I have a business contract in place that has a clause in it that specifically states I have the right to substitute.

i said hes not swapping shifts, he doesnt do somebody elses shift, his wages drop for the day he doesnt work. The person replacing him is an employee of the same co. My son gets someone to sub for him.
So does his contract, he doesnt have to work if he gets a substitute.

I'm sure your contract has all sorts of checks, or can you sub in anyone you want, no checks, i doubt that, especially at an Airport.