Only one speed

[DeppityDawg]

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 :Patriot:  ::  ::  :roll:

The one in the Bermuda shorts looks like someone I know  ::  ::  ::

[papasmurf]

And we know this will be the case under the current agreement because...?

About all the Duchy can do is stop what is usually does and let the NHS use its facilities to move patients from the Royal Cornwall to give it more capacity.

Also it has been detailed:-

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/cornwalls-private-duchy-hospital-joins-4011882">https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornw ... ns-4011882">https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/cornwalls-private-duchy-hospital-joins-4011882

[patman post]

I am aware of that but that won't help much as usually if a patient at the Duchy need some kind or emergency treatement they are wheeled across the road into the Royal Cornwall. (About forty feet door to door.)

And we know this will be the case under the current agreement because...?

[Thomas]

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 :Patriot:  ::  ::  :roll:

[Thomas]

Seems the 6th biggest economy in the world cant even keep up wae the wee regions like jockland "and its smaller population than london" , never mind internationally with many other european nations , before you even mention the other top economies in the world. :roll:



It does seem to be a definite plan behind this by the uk government , and why they are coming in for mass amounts of criticism internally , especially within england.



Thank feck we jocks have the broad shoulders of the uk to fall back on in times of crises , instead of having delusions of grandeur and visions of crocks of gold like the rest of the worlds independent countries! ::



( sorry toots coudnt resist)

[Thomas]

My earlier point about Englands poor performance internally within the uk for testing , as noted by the bbc...

Coronavirus: How does testing compare across the UK nations?

[/b]



https://archive.is/oaT9P/df9274665c641d90eebb31bdcc8ea8f48a49080c.png">

Experts say England has far more laboratories than the other UK nations, and it is important to create a uniform testing platform so all labs are testing in exactly the same way.

But Dr Bharat Pankhania, senior clinical lecturer at the University of Exeter medical school, says Public Health England (PHE) has been slow to accredit some of those labs.

"This is nothing to do with capacity," he says, "capacity can be expanded very quickly, and there are plenty of labs."

"This is a simple test and we just need to get on with it. We don't need this stranglehold by PHE."



    Health experts 'frustrated' by low UK virus testing

    Can I get tested for coronavirus?

    Testing, PPE and ventilators: How has the government done?



When asked to comment on the slower pace of testing in England so far, PHE gave no direct response.

Instead a spokesman referred to comments made in an interview by Mr Hancock, in which he said:

"Some other countries went into this crisis with a big diagnostics industry. We started with some of the best scientific labs in the world, but not the sort of scale Germany has."

"If you look at similar countries like France, we have tested far more people then it has. All that matters to me is getting this right and getting testing where it needs to be."

That of course does not explain the discrepancy in testing figures between different nations within the UK.

[/b]





https://archive.is/oaT9P">https://archive.is/oaT9P

[Thomas]

It looks like the Dr Strangelove-style "herd immunity" plan of Whitty and Vallance may need to be defeated for a second time

Here's the most disturbing thing I've read since the start of the lockdown - BuzzFeed says a source has told them that Whitty and Vallance are still privately plotting to deliberately allow 60%+ of the population to be infected with the virus in a deranged attempt to foster "herd immunity", albeit over a longer time-scale than they originally had in mind.  This apparently explains their appalling refusal to commit to sufficient levels of testing.  I must say that was the impression I formed when I saw the pair at a press event held several days after the Imperial College paper had forced a change of strategy.  It was as if, for them, nothing had changed at all - they were still talking about merely delaying the peak of the epidemic until the summer and spreading the infections out more.  Whitty at one point even went into a technical explanation about how delaying the epidemic could potentially reduce the overall number of infections somewhat by avoiding "overshooting".  That's unmistakeably the language of a mitigation strategy, not of the suppression strategy that the Imperial College paper told them was absolutely essential to avoid a catastrophic loss of life.



So what's going on?  I think it's professional arrogance - they're reluctantly going along with suppression for the time being, but still want to be proved right at a later date and so are refusing to modify their language or their objectives.  It would be psychologically too difficult to admit to themselves that avoidable deaths will now inevitably occur because the disastrous herd immunity strategy led them to delay vital decisions on social distancing and the ramping up of testing.  By continuing to gaslight us now, ie. by pretending that the WHO's recommendations on mass testing and contact tracing somehow don't apply to the UK, are they trying to put in place another self-fulfilling prophecy?  



We all know there is a perfectly viable alternative exit strategy that doesn't involve a mass epidemic.  It involves waiting until the lockdown reduces the number of infections to a low level, and then keeping them low by testing and contact tracing after the lockdown is lifted. Are Vallance and Whitty hellbent on leaving a mass epidemic as the only option by making sure sufficient testing capacity still won't be there when the moment arrives?  If so, we mustn't let them get away with it.



The good news is that Whitty and Vallance aren't the only scientists advising the government.  Professor Neil Ferguson set out a much saner way forward last week - he said that he had been told that testing capacity would soon improve markedly, and that this would allow us at some point to safely come out of lockdown while keeping the number of new infections at an acceptably low level.  My guess is that Jeremy Hunt has been having private conversations with other experts on SAGE who are exasperated with the attitude of Whitty and Vallance, and that might explain why he's been doing his best to use his influence to steer the government in the correct direction.



The Whitty/Vallance plan no longer even makes sense on its own terms.  One of Whitty's original excuses for herd immunity was the supposed impracticality of asking people to maintain social distancing over a very prolonged period.  But part of the plan was always to "cocoon" the most vulnerable people during the "managed epidemic", and sure enough my elderly mum belatedly received a letter today telling her to avoid all face-to-face contact for 12 weeks.  As things stand, that will probably mostly cover a period of lockdown and suppression.  If Whitty and Vallance then get their hearts' desire of a slow-motion human tragedy of biblical proportions (you know, just to avoid losing face), will that mean vulnerable people actually have to avoid all social contact for 78 weeks until the carnage is finally over?  An intelligent hamster could spot the flaw in that plan.



Once again, if you feel as strongly about this as I do, it might be a good idea to contact your MP or MSP (or both).  Here are the most important points to make -



* The government must commit to mass testing and contact tracing as its strategy for eventually bringing lockdown to an end.  If the testing capacity isn't there at the moment, they should be honest about that, and undertake to reach that capacity as soon as humanly possible.  It should be an all-out effort with no more delays and no more excuses.



* A hazy promise of "more testing" is NOT sufficient. We're not just talking about testing health workers (although of course they should be first in the queue).  We're not just talking about community surveillance.  The WHO recommendation is absolutely explicit - all countries should test every suspected case.  If the test is positive, that person should be quarantined and their close contacts should be traced and tested.  Until a vaccine arrives, that is the only way to break the chains of transmission and avert a mass epidemic.



* Deliberately allowing 60%+ of the public to be infected is not an acceptable alternative exit strategy, and will not become acceptable under any circumstances whatsoever.  It would cause an unimaginable number of deaths, and ironically might well fail to produce 'herd immunity' anyway.  Many experts believe that people who recover from the virus might be susceptible to reinfection after a few months, or a year, or a couple of years.  Not enough is known about the virus to be sure, and allowing huge numbers of people to die in the vague hope that it might possibly produce some speculative benefit at a later date is totally outrageous and downright immoral.



* Perhaps most importantly of all, there should be no question of lifting the lockdown until there is a commitment to mass testing and contact tracing, and until the ability is there to carry it out.  Disturbingly, Scotland's Chief Medical Officer suggested the other day that suppression measures might be relaxed when the NHS has enough spare capacity to treat more patients.  The idea that it's somehow OK to needlessly allow people to become seriously ill just because there's a hospital bed ready for them is, let's be honest, utter lunacy.

[/b]





http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2020/03/it-looks-like-dr-strangelove-style-herd.html">http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2020/03 ... -herd.html">http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2020/03/it-looks-like-dr-strangelove-style-herd.html

[Thomas]

Don't worry I'm not concerned but was in teasing mode for a while. We have had a good little to and fro and it has relieved the boredom for a while. I do realise that you enjoy a good comeback but I am about to take a break. Thanks!  

 :hattip No worries toots , stay well , and pour yourself a cuppa .



edit# think i will too.

[Thomas]

Pass.  :shrg:

Ok fair enough barry , you are at least man enough to admit you dont know.



Neither do i .



Putting on what small bit of logic i can on this issue , while i too am suffering economically , i think i will pass on the herd immunity plan ,and go with the majority of nations and health organisations around the world , rather than relying on the uk government and its scientific advisers "we know best " approach.



Like most , im learning something new on this each day , and not likeing what i am seeing .

[T00ts]

No sourness here toots , i took great pains to put laughing emojis in many of my posts . :hattip  



Im simply standing toe to toe and replying to each and every one of your platitudes on why england should continue to have control over its wee "british " island empire.



After each limp claim is defeated , for example population excuse , or why independence is ok for england but not scotland , you move onto the next platitude in defence of the realm.



You are now arguing that scotland must stay under english control because a few tobacco lords made some money out of transatlantic trade?



Why doesnt that apply to india , or ireland , or america as well. Each nation had people who made money and ran elements of england empire , but the majority in each country still felt those little gains a few made where vastly outweighed by the cons their country suffered in the process ,and went independent of westminster rule.?



When the irish or americans coming back to "benefit" from the crumbs from westminsters table? ::  :roll:

Don't worry I'm not concerned but was in teasing mode for a while. We have had a good little to and fro and it has relieved the boredom for a while. I do realise that you enjoy a good comeback but I am about to take a break. Thanks!  

[Barry]

Aye i know barry , and i mentioned on here my own personal fears over my wee business. I cant go one forever and a day living off the back of savings.



What im asking though , is why no nations , or certainly the vast vast majority  , considering the herd immunity idea as a viable plan?

Pass.  :shrg:

[Thomas]

I detect a sourness in your tone. I don't think there is any desire for an empire Thomas, you malign us.

No sourness here toots , i took great pains to put laughing emojis in many of my posts . :hattip  



Im simply standing toe to toe and replying to each and every one of your platitudes on why england should continue to have control over its wee "british " island empire.



After each limp claim is defeated , for example population excuse , or why independence is ok for england but not scotland , you move onto the next platitude in defence of the realm.



You are now arguing that scotland must stay under english control because a few tobacco lords made some money out of transatlantic trade?



Why doesnt that apply to india , or ireland , or america as well. Each nation had people who made money and ran elements of england empire , but the majority in each country still felt those little" gains" a few made  ,were vastly outweighed by the cons their country suffered in the process ,and went independent of westminster rule.?



When the irish or americans coming back to "benefit" from the crumbs from westminsters table? ::  :roll:

[Thomas]

This post made my heart ache, Barry. If I felt sure that my kids would get mild symptoms I would feel easier but the evidence is not what we were told at the beginning. You have had it and claim that many in your family likewise, I don't have that comfort.

Good article on this the other day toots on one of those dastardly scottish indy sites....

The number of excess deaths caused in the UK by a "herd immunity" strategy would be comparable to the Hiroshima bombing

[/b]

The UK is in a grim place when even Donald Trump now has a more enlightened attitude to the crisis than our own Chief Medical Officer and Chief Scientific Adviser.   Trump on herd immunity: "well you know it's a concept, it's a concept - if you don't mind death."



Among the dwindling band of enthusiasts for the "take it on the chin" / "herd immunity" approach, a favourite refrain is that it doesn't actually matter if an unimaginable number of people die, because (supposedly) "they would have died anyway". Incredibly, even the BBC tried that line the other week. The idea is that many of the deaths are elderly people with severe health conditions who would otherwise have had an extremely short life expectancy. Now let's be clear what we're talking about here: Imperial College estimate that without a full-on suppression strategy, around 250,000 people would die of the virus in the UK, and of those, around half to two-thirds "might" otherwise have died of another cause at some point this year - although of course that leaves open the possibility that they could have lived on for many months, and no price tag can really be put on that.



But even if those people are completely excluded, that means the real total of excess deaths would be "only" somewhere between 83,000 and 125,000. As we've seen, many of those victims would be relatively young, and a significant minority would have no underlying health conditions. We're talking about people who can reasonably expect to live a great many years or decades in the absence of a herd immunity strategy.



For comparison, the death toll from the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima in 1945 is estimated to have been somewhere between 90,000 and 146,000.

[/b]



Might be a bit emotive , but the political fallout for the uk government if it goes down this path would be immense.

[T00ts]

Three quarters of the countries around the world have a population smaller than englands , and nearly half have populations similar to or near scotlands.



Yep , i can feel it in the air toots , the empire is coming back. Mass renouncing of sovereignty around the world and handing over of control to westminster is just around the corner. :roll:  ::



Even banana republics in africa or the carribean are saying they cant feed themselves , theres more palm trees in some than people , and with no nhs they might all die because of covid 19 , but we would rather that than hand our countries over to the english?

I detect a sourness in your tone. I don't think there is any desire for an empire Thomas, you malign us. Don't forget that Scottish history shows Scots just as instrumental in building that Empire and taking the profits.  Scotland is not guilt free, in fact the way I read it they took great pride in their conquests. We are not the only ones who, looking back with the eyes of modern day enlightenment, might also feel some reserve at what was deemed success at that time. We none of us can take the blame for the actions of our predecessors or lay at other's doors.

[Thomas]

I'm definitely open to it after the 3 weeks are up. Scott's idea of shileding the elderly and vulnerable whilst everyone else goes back to almost normal is good for the economy and for people's well being. It's not a risk free policy to coop people up in their houses for months on end. There are health issues, both physical and mental with that approach.

It's a bit like the choice when pulling a plaster off your hairy arm. Do it quick and have a short sharp pain all in one go, or do it slowly, drag it out.

It's not my choice for the country.



If the economy is completely ruined, many more will die, Thomas and that is a great concern.

Aye i know barry , and i mentioned on here my own personal fears over my wee business. I cant go one forever and a day living off the back of savings.



What im asking though , is why no nations , or certainly the vast vast majority  , considering the herd immunity idea as a viable plan?



Are you saying the uk government , which so far has shown absolutely no ingenuity , or vision , but merely followed poorly  and limply , with its feet dragging  behind the ideas of many other countries around the world , got some ingenious plan no one else has thought of?



Cause if so , as my quotes of Trump and Ardern the kiwi show  that certainly isnt the case.



Certainly if englands goes down that route , then scotland should immediately renounce any sort of co operation and start taking action .



In fact , being particularly callous about it , if the uk government does , and forces scotland to comply , the culling of thousands of scottish elderly and vulnerable might  just be the gift that keeps giving for independence. :hattip